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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#501

Post by cup-of-tea »

valtism wrote: post #369
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group. Why would you say this with such conviction when you don't know anything about what the team is doing behind the scenes? They do yearly surveys that do include things like culture / minori…

There was no evidence shown, though. That almost certainly means it doesn't exist. Maybe they do know that most programmers fit a particular stereotype (white/asian man), but that isn't because other people find stackoverflow "unwelcoming".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#502

Post by cup-of-tea »

lukev wrote: post #11

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. This is such an important point and missed so often by technical types. Impressed to hear it stated so clearly here.

Maybe they should make a stackoverflow for women. The answer doesn't have to be right, it just has to make you feel good.

Men built stackoverflow. Yes, those "technical types". Men can build things like this precisely because men value what is correct. If you want somewhere where feelings have a place you should stick to the creative arts.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#503

Post by PeterStuer »

Isn't this the natural evolution of long running public discussion sites? In the end, the 'Netiquette Nazi's' [1] take over. Because some might be willing to push back on them, but eventually, the proverbial 'never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty but the pig loves it' will assign victory by attrition.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20080701090858/http://redwing.hut...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#504

Post by Lapsa »

oh. hoped for something substantial, worthwhile. Jon Skeet attending pride parades unfortunately isn't that. early StackOverflow model was way better (the one w/ code golfing, silly joke questions and whatnot). it was like one ring to rule them all - THE resource for programmers, flooded with brilliant minds. now it's just a boring directory of some answers full with zealots. continuously degrading in quality.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#505

Post by KnightOfWords »

I see it as a systematic problem: When everyone's a moderator there is a trend towards the strictest interpretation of the rules. If five moderators take a look at a post the first four may see nothing wrong with it, but the fifth may still flag it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#506

Post by Mithaldu »

matt_j wrote: post #431
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

There's a delicate balance for moderators to achieve and I don't envy them. Some questions are clearly daft, the person hasn't done any prior research, the question is vague, the problem is not apparent and it's a big waste of time trying to help. These questions are often shut down mercilessly and I think that's probably the best thing for them, but I've no doubt it's a terrible experience for the guy asking the que…

You have a reasonable reply by nookoking, but you probably can't see it because he's banned.

nookoking, if you see this, maybe mail the mods. I have no idea why you'd be banned, your history looks fine, but all but your very first post are dead.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#507

Post by Mithaldu »

JPGalt wrote: post #298
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I have had similar issues on this site. I have had 3 high rep users of the site close a question I asked having never answered a single question in the technology I was referencing. That said I have never felt that because I was not white I was treated differently, how would anyone even know that? I guess they could go look for a profile picture before they answer? If you have people doing that then there is a much b…

> That said I have never felt that because I was not white I was treated differently, how would anyone even know that?

People extrapolate from names. ESPECIALLY if your name sounds indian.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#508

Post by bambax »

> only to be told that on Stack Overflow, “please” and “thank you” are considered noise

I don't know if this is still in place but it should be stopped. Saying thanks to someone who helps you is the most natural thing in the world, it's something normal humans do.

If you forbid it, then you become an unnatural place, a weird place that feels weird and uncomfortable.

You also become a kind of cult, where insiders know and accept how to behave weirdly. And cults are very unwelcoming to newcomers (kind of their point, actually).

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#509

Post by Mithaldu »

jakear wrote: post #200
CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Totally agree. While I do think “newer coders” may very likely feel unwelcome, as an extension of the elitism issue, there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified... I fear people are subconsciously correlating these groups with “less able coders”. Obviously this correlation serves only to damage.

Of course there are mechanisms. For example it is super easy to tell if an asker is indian, by their name. And often women chose names that allow a good guess. Other hints may also be contained in the name. Then there is the profile image, and of course the bio. And lastly, often the question itself can contain details that hint at things.

Yes, people can hide these characteristics, but they shouldn't need to.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#510

Post by untangle »

lambda wrote: post #429
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I'm a high-scoring user who has been put off by this exact behavior. The problem is, the behavior is pervasive among other high scoring users, and whenever I advocate against this kind of behavior, I get a whole bunch of pushback about it. No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture; they just push back and pile on when criticism is brought up. After a couple t…

> No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture

No one wants the rules to change in a game that they perceive that they are winning (or have won). Moreso if they worked hard to win.

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