Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

stackoverflow.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 739 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#361

Post by Izkata »

lukev wrote: post #11

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. This is such an important point and missed so often by technical types. Impressed to hear it stated so clearly here.

It's straight-up wrong though. A number of people feel unwelcome or hostile? Okay, out of how many?

There's always going to be a very small percentage of people who don't fit in in large groups, no matter how much you try to work with them. They're also the ones who tend to speak up, and StackOverflow's userbase is massive, so this number gets inflated to something that may seem like a lot, but really isn't that many - and may well be within the error margin for "people who won't fit in".

Typically moderation would push these people away, so they don't keep complaining, but StackOverflow, despite any issues it has, is too good a resource as-is.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#362

Post by psyc »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Not the point. It isn't that SO is meaner to marginalized people because SO knows who they are. It's that marginalized people are more sensitive to being excluded, and less likely to voluntarily endure the hazing.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#363

Post by suavesav »

>> (It serves a valuable purpose by keeping signal high, but also suggests that we just might be Zuckerbots who aren’t even trying very hard to pass as actual humans)

Why randomly attack Zuck? That is such an unnecessary meanness in an article about being nice to people :(

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#364

Post by lightedman »

Rotareti wrote: post #340
cpburns2009 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will be the downfall of Stack Overflow eventually. The rules for question and answers try to be objective and specific, but they end up being too strict and are making the site less useful over time. What they should do is allow broad, general, subjective questions. That would allow for answers with general guidance instead of directly answering a broad question. It would also allow a clueless person to get some…

> This will be the downfall of Stack Overflow eventually. The rules for question and answers try to be objective and specific, but they end up being too strict and are making the site less useful over time. I never really understood what their issue is with broad questions. There are so many question from the early years of SO which became popular healthy Q&A despite being "broad" and they are now too popular to get…

"I never really understood what their issue is with broad questions."

The people there are too obtuse to see a broad question as one that is looking for guidance, and not as a 'do my homework for me' question.

Some people ask the question in a general manner so that they don't have the answer just given to them. They'd like an explanation with reasoning that they can follow.

Good luck ever getting that on SO.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#365

Post by mr_toad »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #146
ggregoire wrote: post #61

I've been an active user for 7 years… and I lived my very first case of moderator abuse last week. A moderator closed a 1.5 year old question[1] with 20 upvotes, 25 stars, 9000 views and an answer at 28 upvotes without any vote or consultation, because it was too broad for him. StackOverflow has all the tools to allow the users to moderate the platform by themselves, kinda democratically. From my experience, it works…

This will be the downfall of Stack Overflow eventually. The rules for question and answers try to be objective and specific, but they end up being too strict and are making the site less useful over time. What they should do is allow broad, general, subjective questions. That would allow for answers with general guidance instead of directly answering a broad question. It would also allow a clueless person to get some…

> What they should do is allow broad, general, subjective questions.

But you can’t answer those questions. You have to engage in an extended discussion with the asker to find out what they want, what they know/don’t know. And SO isn’t a discussion forum. Honestly I think those sorts of of questions are better asked in the chat channels, or somewhere like Reddit.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#366

Post by manigandham »

dragonwriter wrote: post #297
manigandham wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have less tolerance, how is that anyone else's problem? Some people are also more prone to sunburn than others, but we don't say the sun needs to be less bright. You are in control of your own feelings. Yes, StackOverflow should generally have better language and reworked rules around content, voting and moderation, but that has nothing to do with how susceptible you are to comments on the internet. Also why i…

> Also why is it that minorities always comes down to not being male or white when half the planet is female and most of the planet is not white? Because that use of language about marginalized/disadvantaged/underrepresented groups arose specifically in the context of racial minorities in the US, at a time when Whites were both an overwhelming majority and socially dominant it of proportion to their numerical dominan…

The comment I replied to said minorities.

This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The exact issue is harsh replies and actions that stem from the gamification dynamics and strict moderation. It has nothing to do with physical traits of the user on either side, especially when users are anonymous. Minorities and marginalized groups are nice to mention in the current PC climate but have little do with the actual topic.

Law is based on provable damages, which is why it's particularly focused on physical harm. Your feelings are not included in that. Experiencing an emotion is not damage. Also tort law means the defendant had a duty to act in a certain way and failed to do so, with the plaintiff proving the failure of that duty led to the harm. Intent also matters a great deal so unless you can now derive and prove intentions and duty behind StackOverflow comments, this example does not apply to this topic.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#367

Post by bsder »

For me, the bigger problem with Stack Overflow is simply that it is not aging well.

There are a LOT of answers that have huge numbers of upvotes that are simply wrong--mostly because things change and evolve.

SO is good for something which just came out in the last 6 months--anything older than 3 years needs to be treated with extreme skepticism.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#369

Post by valtism »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group.

Why would you say this with such conviction when you don't know anything about what the team is doing behind the scenes? They do yearly surveys that do include things like culture / minority status as well as questions about inclusion.

I can't help but feel like this is just another white male majority site jumping to shut down this type of discussion before it even starts.

Post reply on HN