America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself • Hacker News Board

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#61

Post by specialist » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

Bigotry?

Because every magazine needs an anti-abortion zealot on staff? For balance?

Dear me, where will I get my daily trog talking points if The Atlantic doesn't spoon feed them to me?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#62

Post by bluthru » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

maroonblazer wrote: post #29

bluthru wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan…

> It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese? Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding. If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really. But a Fin moving to the U.S. can become an American and perceived by the rest of us as American. Civilization i…

>Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding.

I'm not sure you want to use America's founding as an argument: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUhBdicX0AAGNZ5.jpg

>If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really.

People want to destroy this notion. It has already taken place for the British. https://youtu.be/flRELYUqmUE?t=3m55s

>civilization is rife with examples of us overcoming our natural tendencies. Why should this be any different?

Because it's a very recent experiment and it has been a net loss for white countries. Social science tells us that diversity reduces social trust, identity, empathy, and a sense of community.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#63

Post by astine » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #44

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

No idea what he has to say for himself in the wsj since it's behind a paywall, but I did google him. I wasn't familiar with any of this but if this is accurate: It was Mr. Williamson’s hard-line stance on abortion — namely, that it should be treated as premeditated homicide and punished accordingly, perhaps by hanging — that generated the initial controversy over his hiring. Well, you know, his time at The Atlantic w…

If someone links you to article, you can generally get through the paywall, so here is Williamson's own take on his situation:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-m...

The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt:

"The purported reason for our “parting ways,” as Mr. Goldberg put it in his announcement, had nothing to do with what I’d written in my inaugural piece. The problem was a six-word, four-year-old tweet on abortion and capital punishment and a discussion of that tweet in a subsequent podcast. I had responded to a familiar pro-abortion argument: that pro-lifers should not be taken seriously in our claim that abortion is the willful taking of an innocent human life unless we are ready to punish women who get abortions with long prison sentences. It’s a silly argument, so I responded with these words: “I have hanging more in mind.”

Trollish and hostile? I’ll cop to that, though as the subsequent conversation online and on the podcast indicated—to say nothing of the few million words of my published writing available to the reading public—I am generally opposed to capital punishment. I was making a point about the sloppy rhetoric of the abortion debate, not a public-policy recommendation. Such provocations can sometimes clarify the terms of a debate, but in this case, I obscured the more meaningful questions about abortion and sparked the sort of hysteria I’d meant to point out and mock."

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#64

Post by naravara » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #54

throwaway21333 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would eliminating the tribalism subroutine benefit the species? Is a homogeneous global population the most resilient?

Society and civilization is basically what comes out of setting aside tribalism. Tribalism doesn't mean heterogeneity, it means accepting people outside of your tribe as a potential valuable to you, instead of treating them as default dangerous.

>Society and civilization is basically what comes out of setting aside tribalism. Tribalism doesn't mean heterogeneity, it means accepting people outside of your tribe as a potential valuable to you, instead of treating them as default dangerous.

Plenty of societies have extremely durable, endogamous tribal identifiers and they got along fine. This is true of India, China, The Ottoman Empire, and so on.

India, in particular, has some of the most durable and persistent forms of tribalism around, with castes having remained largely endogamus for centuries or more despite living, working, and trading with each other routinely.

Yet this didn't prevent them from alternating with China (itself extremely tribally divided despite the modern attempts to sweep it under the rug and cohere a "Han" nationality) at being the 1st or 2nd most prosperous civilization in the world for most of human history.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#65

Post by bluthru » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

virtuexru wrote: post #60

bluthru wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan…

Not sure why you are being downvoted. Great post. Bravo.

The new state religion is diversity and to question it makes one a heretic. Why can't it be discussed dispassionately the same way we discuss climate change? Maybe we shouldn't subsidize policies that have negative effects for citizens?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#66

Post by Clubber » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

montyf wrote: post #58

humanrebar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because I'm not entirely certain that we can eliminate tribalism. It's fair to say tribalism has always been around. And from that perspective, the current tribalism, including left-wing identity politics, is extremely reactionary. A few things are, if not new, at least notable in this case: * These people aren't historically outsiders, they're "heartland" Americans. * The cultural narrative hasn't caught up to the…

You're absolutely right, but HN users don't realize that most of America exists outside of their ideological bubble. > For example, if child of meth heads grows up to be president, he's yet another privileged white president, not an outsider who overcame adversity. It's racism and nothing else. Thing is, it's OK to be racist nowadays, as long as you're a liberal. Edit: to the guy quoting the dictionary below me, this…

Again, not racism. It's being stereotypical.

Dictionary definition:

>prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#67

Post by montyf » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #32

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

I also remember a time when human decency wasn't shrouded in the pejorative "political correctness". Both myself and the leadership of The Atlantic listened to what Kevin Williamson said. I think it speaks for itself.

> I also remember a time when human decency wasn't shrouded in the pejorative "political correctness".

Not sure what you're getting at with this rhetoric (no wonder you're a fan of vague, politically-correct statements -- I have no idea what the second part of your comment means). People don't like political correctness because it's a manipulation tool of policy makers, used to misdirect and to prevent unwanted discussion -- like with e.g. the illegal immigration problem, which no one dared bring up before You-Know-Who. Political correctness is also a cowardly and intellectually dishonest mode of discourse.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#68

Post by stronglikedan » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

ManFromUranus wrote: post #45

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

>I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality I don't see that happening at all, that would be nice, but that's not the general direction. I think things are getting worse as far as that's concerned. Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. There is MASSIVE…

> Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues.

I only see that online. The many, many people I engage with in real life rarely act like they are in a biased information silo. The ability to hide behind a computer screen just brings out the worst in people, IMHO.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#69

Post by stevenwoo » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #44

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

No idea what he has to say for himself in the wsj since it's behind a paywall, but I did google him. I wasn't familiar with any of this but if this is accurate: It was Mr. Williamson’s hard-line stance on abortion — namely, that it should be treated as premeditated homicide and punished accordingly, perhaps by hanging — that generated the initial controversy over his hiring. Well, you know, his time at The Atlantic w…

It was an appalling failure to investigate his background by the man who hired him, critics rightly pointed our Williamson's equivalency of murder and abortion - which has led to many not too bright folks to actually murdering abortion providers.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#70

Post by assblaster » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #49

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

> A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something t…

The problem with your statement on religious intolerance, is that wanting someone to change the fundamentals of their religion can be equated with intolerance of that religion, even having a term specific to it: Islamophobia.

I think reform of Islam must involve accommodating people who are considered sinners. The problem is that communicating this critique of Islam can be considered hate speech by the tribalists.