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America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#11

Post by mattzito »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5
ggm wrote: post #3

I found it hard to read this article as having grounds to draw the positive conclusion from it's own premises: the inherently racist views of communities with low real immigration despite obvious dependencies on the immigration present bodes very badly, as does the underlying false optimism of a new wave of political consciousness. I suspect the new America is an isolationist America

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

> how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist?

On the face of it, no, of course, wanting to maintain a sense of community in your town is not inherently racist. But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve, and people arriving from somewhere else can be part of that.

I would also argue that:

> Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people

Is an oversimplification of both rural trends AND multiculturalism. Rural america has historically been deeply shaped by immigration and migration, and rural america was fine with it, as long as economic and social opportunity was growing. When that ceased to be the case, immigration/multiculturalism was one of many factors blamed.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#12

Post by [deleted] »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #9
krapp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a push…

> When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibl…

[deleted]

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#13

Post by ashleyn »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5
ggm wrote: post #3

I found it hard to read this article as having grounds to draw the positive conclusion from it's own premises: the inherently racist views of communities with low real immigration despite obvious dependencies on the immigration present bodes very badly, as does the underlying false optimism of a new wave of political consciousness. I suspect the new America is an isolationist America

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind.

A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#14

Post by Density »

nl wrote: post #8
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans.

Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#15

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #9
krapp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a push…

> When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibl…

How many of the problems the US faces are genuinely caused by immigration, and how many would change if immigration ended?

That's the crux of the matter.

Factually, in the UK virtually none of our social and economic problems have been caused by immigration. When you look into the facts, unaffordable housing, a creaking health service, street violence, and job losses are all effects of policy, not specific groups of foreign people.

Coincidentally, the people pushing the policies that created our problems are also the most enthusiastic using immigrants as a scapegoat and misdirection.

I wonder if the US is the same.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#16

Post by gerbilly »

>What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news?

The fundamental attribution error[1]

[1] http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attri...

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#17

Post by bilbo0s »

gerbilly wrote: post #16

>What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? The fundamental attribution error[1] [1] http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attri...

You pretty much summed up what I was thinking the entire time I was reading the article. The average person will say, "Oh yeah... WE'RE doing a GREAT job! We're doing what we need to do to make progress, and things are improving for us."

And then they'll say, "It's all those OTHER people and places that are being jerks!"

I wish people could better see where other people are coming from so to speak.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#18

Post by bilbo0s »

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

"...So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren?..."

Yeah... but that's been going on forever. You see that with Muslims recently. We've seen that with hispanics. Further back, of course, we've been seeing it with blacks and native americans for a long time. That will ALWAYS happen.

The trick is to work out a way to keep moving forward even in the face of tribalism. Because I'm not entirely certain that we can eliminate tribalism. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that I will be.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#19

Post by bluthru »

ashleyn wrote: post #13
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?)

>A sense of community can transcend religion and race

It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#20

Post by crankylinuxuser »

Density wrote: post #14
nl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars.

We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr

Then she goes into talking about her daughter who moved back in. Disabled. And when they went to the Social Security office and Welfare office, "those brown and black people always seem to get it". She went off on a soliloquy about 'us poor whites'.

Yeah, racism exists. And we've seen it in rural communities much more than urban. The worst part, is that I would bet that she didn't think she was being racist.

edit: added "not pay in credit card"

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