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Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

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Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#171

Post by mirimir »

simonh wrote: post #136
fsloth wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is well known the car and petrol companies were heavy lobbyists in developing the transit architecture in the US (including zoning and so on) after the second world war. To exaggerate a bit, the entire country was designed to facilitate automobile sales. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_car_on_societ... In the continental europe most of the urban centers predate the automobile hundreds if not…

This was the one thing that really surprised me when I first visited the US in the 90s. We'd stop at a store or restaurant somewhere and the nearest neighbouring stores on either side would be 200m away, with their own huge parking lot and no pedestrian route between them. We were driving from Chicago to LA and so when we'd stop I'd want to stretch my legs, but the barriers in the way made a walk like that rally diff…

Yes, and it all looks the same. We call it "Generica" :)

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#172

Post by mantas »

rdtsc wrote: post #107
mantas wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all central planning mean same end result. US gov did embrace suburban sprawl. Bottom-up planning example would be post-USSR where people converted community gardens into suburbs on their own. Without any central planning or viable infrastructure.

> US gov did embrace suburban sprawl. Yeah but they didn't directly design cities the way a top-down developer would do. They are some planned communities in US. I live next to one, and it is a different feel to it definitely. But it is not a common thing at all. At the federal level there are tax incentives and credits and subsidies and those affect everything but it is still very much a local "maximize my profit" k…

> Yeah but they didn't directly design cities the way a top-down developer would do. They are some planned communities in US. I live next to one, and it is a different feel to it definitely. But it is not a common thing at all.

Top-down developer can design it any way he wants. Top-down just means it's planned and not anarchistic like in ex-USSR.

Even policy of not enforcing parks, playground or allowing lesser population density is top-down development. Policy of building highways to accommodate sprawl is top-down as well.

Meanwhile bottom-up in ex-USSR style means ex-community gardens converted into suburbs without central water/sewage, no proper road network etc. While some developers put in over-the-top density highrises in questionable locations. Again, without proper infrastructure to support them. In both cases, it's incentives from people or developers without any support and sometimes even acknowledgement from the government.

> I jokingly say that overnight they become more capitalist and laissez faire than most countries in the West.

I'd say that with 100% straight face. We're definitely much more capitalist than western europe and definitely competing with US on many fronts.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#173

Post by shaki-dora »

profalseidol wrote: post #111
danans wrote: post #21

It's a strange shift in affairs that China appears to have the greatest incentives (urban pollution, petroleum imports) today to advance clean transportation and energy while the US has stalled or moved backward, at least the Federal level. Western European countries, for whom fossil fuels don't seem to be an identity politics issue like in the US, are also making more progress in electrifying their transportation an…

Perhaps the Oil companies control the US gov't. Or perhaps they're actually the same.

US politics is actually very receptive to public opinion. Tobacco and alcohol lobbies are fighting tooth and nail against marijuana legalization, especially since it currently limits company sizes in most states, effectively shutting them out of the market. But they are on the verge and/or have already lost that fight.

So no, the US record on environmental issues isn’t the result of an industry takeover of government. It’s the result of effectively lobbying the public, and making “damaging the environment” part of people’s perceived identity in some quarters.

Just look at the appeal of Trump’s focus on coal: the industry has about 50000 workers left. That’s far less than solar or wind, or Tesla alone. But coal plays to a certain image of masculinity and self-interest that is far more common in the US.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#174

Post by stephengillie »

dvtv75 wrote: post #41
Endama wrote: post #9

I think few people know that a bunch of public transit was actually electric in the early/mid 20th century. Car companies, most notably GM, conspired to convert public transport to gas to make public transit less comfortable compared to private car ownership[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

I remember riding on Dunedin's (New Zealand) Trolley Bus service when I was very small, which were standard bus bodies that were hooked to overhead power lines. I remember the driver hooking the bus back to the power lines. Must have been about '78 or '79.

Seattle has this system all over downtown. Buses have two poles that go up to wires above the street, to power electric motors. Sometimes, the poles demagnetize and fall off the wires, so the driver has to go behind the bus and clap them together, and guide them back up to the wires.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#175

Post by Kliment »

majewsky wrote: post #161
abakker wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2015, Belgium had a Population density of 363people/Km^2. Massachusetts in 2015 had 336 people/KM^2. So, pretty close. The difference is that Belgium has a much more uniform population distribution vs Massachusetts. Secondarily, Belgium can define it's own national policy, while MA must compromise with the rest of the country, including CA, WY, MT, and NY, all of which have very different economic and practical co…

> Belgium can define it's own national policy, while MA must compromise with the rest of the country Belgium must compromise with the rest of the EU on many topics.

Not to mention that Belgium's governance is composed of several governments that are semi-hostile to each other and must compromise with the rest of the country as well.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#176

Post by fsloth »

nickserv wrote: post #153
wereHamster wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the norwegian government is owned by people, unlike the US govt which is owned by corporations. And the people know that it's in their best interest to switch to EV. Also, the norwegian government will end their investments into oil & gas: https://www.ft.com/content/611c2e9e-cad9-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8...

In principle, the US government represents the will of the people. Government officials may be corrupt and in the pockets of corporate interests, but clinging to power is an even bigger motivator. If enough voters demand something, they are usually forced into delivering it, at least partly. The major problem in my view is the systematic and continuous disinformation campaigns regarding climate change and environment…

"In principle, the US government represents the will of the people."

I think US government has always represented mostly the rights and benefits of native capital.

There is nothing wrong with this, IMO, just as long as it is understood that where in Europe the nationalistic movements which picked up their wind from the US and French examples, thus leading to the modern nation states, where fueled by popular sentiment, the US independence was a semi-private project by an oligarchic clique.

Note: taking care of native capital is one of the best recipes for power and independence, which then facilitates all sorts of nice benefits for all around, but it's not everything that is required for building a good life for all.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#177

Post by stephengillie »

janekm wrote: post #149
rmason wrote: post #48

What's sad is that the majority of electric buses being purchased both in America and around the globe aren't manufactured in the US. We have a Silicon Valley company, Tesla, that kicked off the world-wide move to battery powered autos. Why is there not a US company recognized as the leader in buses? There are a few California companies on this list but they're tiny. Here in Michigan the leading player is French and…

Well, BYD has a factory with a capacity for 1500 electric buses per year opened in California last year: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/07/c_136662718.htm So I imagine the majority of their buses sold in the US in the near future will be built there. Of course that's a small proportion of the number of buses they sell in China...

That's some good capacity, comparable to the Tesla model 3. What's their secret to success?

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#178

Post by jgtrosh »

stephengillie wrote: post #170
lenepp wrote: post #62

One interesting feature of articles like this that I don't really get is that they often leave out a huge huge quality of life benefit that electric vehicles bring: reduced urban machine noise.

The visceral excitement from the noise and vibration is a key part of auto marketing, and automakers are struggling to sell cars without it. Some people enjoy the attention they get from their loud, smelly cars - old Porsches, Harley Davidson motorcycles, and large trucks come to mind. Which is why some EVs play engine noises from internal speakers.

But buses? I'm sure it's good to care about drivers' concerns but for a public commodity like buses the aesthetic concerns are naturally less prominent than for personal items.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#179

Post by stephengillie »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #93
contingencies wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't been here long enough (~12 months) to anecdata that, but it's generally recognized that government policies are increasing air quality rapidly in many major cities. Example policies: routinely spraying water on the roads in dusty areas and near construction sites, banning motorbikes from city centers, banning the import of second hand vehicles, encouraging electric vehicles, moving polluting industries away f…

> banning motorbikes from city centers Dirty thing people miss about motorbikes. Better mileage, but not as much as you would think, in return for a lot more emissions. That said I'm lead to understand that electric motorcycles and bicycles have become very common in China.

Larger motorcycles, like Harley Davidson, use the same size engines as compact cars, like the Honda Fit. And they make a lot more noise dong so, which is part of the marketing for them.

Will automakers start putting "engine speakers" on electric Harley Davidson motorcycles and playing engine noises through them?

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#180

Post by tankenmate »

nickserv wrote: post #144
profalseidol wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the Oil companies control the US gov't. Or perhaps they're actually the same.

Interesting then to note that Norway, where the oil company is majority owned by the government, also has the largest per capita fleet of electric cars.

Norway also has proportional representation, so politically it is very unlikely to get a political duopoly and the system encourages cooperation.
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