Live data from Hacker News

In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

wired.co.uk

161–170 of 184 posts

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#161
post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Italian here. In Naples we've been having those 'smart people who steal electricity and rig water meters' for a looooooooong time. You might want to find your exceptional talents here.

Yours truly.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#162
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a doubt all the years of exam preparation in the teenage years come at a steep cost. For a young person in their teens to not have the time to reflect, be self-aware, and explore what life has to offer, is necessarily a failure of the system as a whole. But that is the reality in India, and if students must trade all that for studying hard then it simply reflects their (I would argue correct) perspective on t…

For a young person in their teens to not have the time to reflect, be self-aware, and explore what life has to offer, is necessarily a failure of the system as a whole. But that is the reality in India, and if students must trade all that for studying hard then it simply reflects their (I would argue correct) perspective on the potential rewards of a solid career and securing your future from the certain chaos that a…

You claimed a contradiction but didn't present it. And you go on to assert exactly the things that I said. I am saying that the system failed the students by forcing them to prepare relentlessly for these exams, which the students come to realize is really the only path to success, robbing them of some of the aspects of a normal childhood.

If the system / economy were capable of providing a more varied set of jobs like acting opportunities, regular gigs for bands, apprenticeships in various blue collar jobs, etc. then people will be able to choose professions that better match their interests and skill sets. Why force someone who likes to work with wood into a degree in engineering or science. This is largely what is happening in India.

I am not saying that there are no actors or bands or bike mechanics in India. Rather, it is assumed that everyone needs a degree from college and even if this is an entirely ridiculous proposition for many people (based on their interests) and they endure four years in college doing something they don't enjoy in some of the formative years of their life.

So the people who might have benefited from an apprenticeship or taking a year or two off from this career sprint suffer the most, and the final allocation of people to jobs is dismal (the fact that hundreds of thousands of Indians work at call centers is a symptom). The system fails by not providing such kinds of alternate opportunities at the scale that is necessary for a country so huge.

Finally, all middle income Indian parents will continue to pick some career in a STEM discipline for their kids very early on, preventing any investment of time in discovering their interests, keeping this carousel spinning.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#163
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the pupil. I'm dyspraxic and never learnt the alphabet. It hasn't affected my life or career. Not sure what use it would be to me.

Not sure if troll, but giving the benefit of the doubt... You are clearly posting a comment comprised of letters of the alphabet. How would one do so without knowing the alphabet, assuming you typed it out rather than dictated it. And well, you also read the original reply. So are you having all that dictated for you? Or are you implying the reading/writing does not require knowing the alphabet (which is difficult to…

Apologise I didn't make it clear. What I mean is learning the order of the alphabet. I was taught read, write and type without ever being able to memorise the alphabet.

The last time I used a system that is alphabetically ordered was in a CD shop 10+ years ago. Im not being sarcastic but I use a dictionary regularly, I just search for word using Google.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#164
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the pupil. I'm dyspraxic and never learnt the alphabet. It hasn't affected my life or career. Not sure what use it would be to me.

> never learnt the alphabet By this, do you mean that you can't read? Or you can't remember the ordering of the letters? Or that you can recognize whole words but not as being made up of individual letters?

The order of the letters.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screw acceptance ratios Tell me how many googles, facebooks have been started by IIT grads. That number ought to count for something right

Sun Microsystems was started by an IIT grad (Vinod Khosla), and is responsible for the most popular software platform in the world. Without it, we wouldn't have a lot of the software we do today. I mean... I'm really not a fan of Java, but you'd be hard-pressed to deny its impact on computing. Arguably, Sun Microsystems has had a much larger impact than facebook or google, which are mainly notable for their money mak…

I can give countless such examples about Harvard stanford. You can give me one and that too not a unicorn.

Can't you see my point? Sun was bought by Oracle because of Java, so Khosla basically developed a language which Oracle bought.

I am not belittling the achivements of Khosla, but other institutes outside India have achieved far greater than what Indian institutes can hope to attain

you can't compare Go and Java. Both languages have widely different. Java was meant to writing softwares for systems like fridges Go was meant to write softwares by a large team and exploit parallel processing architecture of modern CPUSs

And trust me, Go is much better when it comes to writing backends and web services

Java is good for enterprise software

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#166
The situation is nothing new. I am from Bangalore and often hear a well known anecdote about Mysore, a large historically rich city about 100 km from Bangalore. I hear it from people of my parents' generation, so it must be the 60s. Its invariably said in a humorous tone.

The 10th year of school is a very important stage, transitioning to university, and the exam has always been stress inducing. On the day of the result, there were policemen guarding a lake called kukkarahalli kere in order to stop students who failed from committing suicide.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree Indian culture is very diverse - much more so than here in the US, for example. But let's look at some of the examples: >If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job. So most kids in Gujarat are not pressured to complete high school? >If you live in Kerala, I imagi…

You can blame colonialism, it’s not an issue. Blaming doesn’t fix the problem, which we can agree on. My point is that expectations of what can be achieved will have to be adjusted. India needs a huge investment of talent and money, and people would rather spend that talent and money to earn US$. The rational choice for individuals is clear. On top of it class size, difficulty in testing at scale, job scarcity, langu…

> My point is that expectations of what can be achieved will have to be adjusted. India needs a huge investment of talent and money, and people would rather spend that talent and money to earn US$. The rational choice for individuals is clear.

Well, that depends on the individual. It may be a rational economic choice, but many of my friends do long for their home country and the social networks back there. Or just to not stand out from the general populace. So they will still go back.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sun Microsystems was started by an IIT grad (Vinod Khosla), and is responsible for the most popular software platform in the world. Without it, we wouldn't have a lot of the software we do today. I mean... I'm really not a fan of Java, but you'd be hard-pressed to deny its impact on computing. Arguably, Sun Microsystems has had a much larger impact than facebook or google, which are mainly notable for their money mak…

I can give countless such examples about Harvard stanford. You can give me one and that too not a unicorn. Can't you see my point? Sun was bought by Oracle because of Java, so Khosla basically developed a language which Oracle bought. I am not belittling the achivements of Khosla, but other institutes outside India have achieved far greater than what Indian institutes can hope to attain you can't compare Go and Java.…

Actually, the list is quite extensive. I called out Sun mainly because it is a class above Google and Facebook. Also, Sun contributed significantly more than just Java: Solaris (one of the first widely used kernels that had containers), SPARC, VirtualBox, OpenOffice, ZFS. I think it's really sad that people have forgotten the contributions of the first-generation of large computer companies. I rank Sun Microsystems with the likes of Microsoft and Apple.

Also, other than Google or Facebook, I can't mention any company of that size founded by Harvard or Stanford Alums (in the computation industry at least). Can you?

Other examples BTW are Cirrus Logic, Zoho, Infosys, etc.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#169
post #124
post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Good points in general. >What's funny, however, is that if you walk past an Indian shanty town, you will find examples of (often illegal) innovation at every corner, from stolen electricty to rigged water meters etc - usually concocted by people with little education. The innovative mindset exists in the heart of Indian society, Yes, very true. Seen stuff like this myself. A couple of examples: 1. When living in Bhop…

Regarding this point from above:

>and that is what inspired me to name both my blogs "jugad", since the broad topic of both is software innovation. The older one, jugad's Journal, which was at jugad.livejournal.com, is not available now, after LiveJournal was acquired

Interestingly, I checked again just now, and that older blog of mine, jugad's Journal, now seems to be accessible:

https://jugad.livejournal.com/

Anyone interested, feel free to check it out, there are some interesting (IMO) posts about software and startups there. I ran it from 2005 to 2008, so there are quite a few posts on it, just like on my later blog, jugad2.blogspot.com, which I've been running from 2008.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#170
post #94
post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Reminds me of an anecdote Richard Feynman had in his book on the Brazilian education system [1]. Basically, the students could memorize crap from books but didn't really comprehend what they were learning, such that when Feynman would ask a question such as "if I hold a glass of water in front of this picture, what will it look like?" they couldn't answer. But if he asked "What is the refractive index of water?" they…

Yes... It's also worth being able to see this "other" in the mirror.

Chemistry education research describes US pre-college chemistry education content as "incoherent". A challenge when teaching high-school stoichiometry, is students not viewing atoms as real physical objects.

... I've had repeated conversations of the form "What do you think of this alternate way to teach X, which seems to yield a deeper understanding?" "Nifty! But... my students take the MCAS [high-stakes exam for medical school] soon, and all they need to know there is [rote-memorized superficiality]. Instruction time is short, and I'd be doing my students a disservice to spend time doing better."

... Plug-and-chug is a thing. Among teaching staff too. A widely-used text, repeated revised, for years had a problem 'apply the idea gas law to solid> Argon'.

... Innumeracy is pervasive in society. There's more than a half century of journal letters from professors complaining that their physics/geology/other PhD candidates lack a quantitative feel for the field. http://bionumbers.hms.harvard.edu/ started with one graduate student realizing their own lack, and trying to do something about it.

... A five-year old wishing to know what color finger paint to use for the Sun, had best not ask first-tier astronomy graduate students, who pervasively get this wrong. Of the few local outliers, as many learned it in a seminar on misconceptions in astronomy education, as in their "successful" astronomy education. Asking a follow-up question of "what color is sunlight?" often elicits as double take, as two rote-memorized inconsistent factoids collide, apparently for the first time.

You can do good astronomy research, without an informed five-year old's knowledge of Sun color. Years ago, a front-page NYTimes article went by, accurately reporting(!) a claim... that the Universe is green. Some folks working with spectra, had for outreach pushed them through some buggy open-source color code, and lacked the basic understanding to recognize the result as nonsense.

The then Brazilian education system was capable of training for rote regurgitation. But not for research. The US system is capable of training for research. But not for numerate multidisciplinary understanding. As is perhaps needed, for example, to create non-wretched science education content.

So as we look at the dysfunctional memorize-and-regurgitate of the Indian education system, it's worth remembering that we're facing similar challenges^W opportunities for transformational improvement.

Post reply on HN