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In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

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Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#141

Post by joe_the_user »

110011 wrote: post #86
osrec wrote: post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Without a doubt all the years of exam preparation in the teenage years come at a steep cost. For a young person in their teens to not have the time to reflect, be self-aware, and explore what life has to offer, is necessarily a failure of the system as a whole. But that is the reality in India, and if students must trade all that for studying hard then it simply reflects their (I would argue correct) perspective on t…

For a young person in their teens to not have the time to reflect, be self-aware, and explore what life has to offer, is necessarily a failure of the system as a whole. But that is the reality in India, and if students must trade all that for studying hard then it simply reflects their (I would argue correct) perspective on the potential rewards of a solid career and securing your future from the certain chaos that awaits the uneducated or even poorly performing students in India.

The degree to which your sentences contradict each other seems remarkable to me. Surely, the student who relentlessly prepare for these exams also don't have time to reflect on whether or not their activity is worth it and so X being "simply their perspective" seems meaningless. Similarly, it would seem to be a failing of the system that there is no other path to success here.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#142

Post by white-flame »

chongli wrote: post #90
osrec wrote: post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

What you're witnessing is the contradiction between real education (designed for learning) and credentialism. The truth is that the world is facing a massive crunch. Billions of people are struggling to get out of the circumstances they're trapped in. Getting a credential and getting a professional job is seen as one of the only paths out of the mire. People who are desperate have no interest in free thinking. Their…

I also broaden this to any place where metrics are involved. People optimize for the metrics instead of doing what the work is fundamentally supposed to be accomplishing. Else, you'll be left behind by the metrics chasers.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#143

Post by asdasdasdasd123 »

My parents died when I was 7. I starved for food when I was a kid. My elder siblings sacrificed everything to buy me books. I wore tattered clothes all my childhood. Today, at age 38, I'm worth many millions of dollars and living in Silicon Valley. Why? For three years, between ages 15-18, I worked my arse off, studying under candle lights and streetlights (no electricity at home) and got into IIT.

I agree that something needs to be done.

A few of my relatives went into depression and have serious mental health issues due to the stress of preparing for IIT JEE. Having seen both sides of the story, I don't have a solution.

A good job can be life changing, while the human toll it takes along the way cannot justify the means...

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#144

Post by outworlder »

rc_hadoken wrote: post #50
manojlds wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to admit my daughter to pre kindergarten, the school expects her to know the alphabet already. Talk about pressure.

Is that hard to teach..I mean..its the alphabet..Excuse my possibly ignorant questioning.

It takes months of constant reinforcement at that age.

Even worse if it is a foreign alphabet.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#145

Post by outworlder »

Balgair wrote: post #132

One thing for Westerners to be aware of: In India, your exam scores (SAT-type thingys) are public, very public. They are usually published in a special edition of the local newspaper, in descending order. Meaning that the best kid comes first in a very public way. Couple this with the familial honor system/arranged marriages and I think you'll understand why pressure can be so intense. Even your love-life can be radi…

OMG! And I thought some of my teachers were horrible because they handed out exam results in descending order.

Although, now that I think about it, my country does the exact same thing for university admission exams, at least the public ones.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#146

Post by sn41 »

thewhitetulip wrote: post #96

The issue is that kids aren't taught to handle pressure, that is the main problem because parents pamper kids until they go to college! as a child, you are not allowed to have your own decisions, like ever. You eat what your parents tell you to eat, you take admission to undergrad/postgrad about what your parents tell. You study hard as they told you, they even decide when and to whom you lose virginity! (arranged ma…

I have studied in Indian and American universities. Many "top ranked" American universities have considerably milder requirements than what is required for passing IIT JEE.

Ranking is based on a number of factors like funding and number of foreign faculty and students. It has nothing to do with the toughness of the entrance exams.

In fact, if you rank institutes according to acceptance ratios, IITs will nearly be the top institutes in the world (the acceptance percentage, roughly 10000 among 1200000, or approx 0.8 percent), along with places like University of Tokyo. If you say restrict to the 5 old IITs, the acceptance ratio is around 0.4 percent. Acceptance ratios have been kept out from ranking parameters.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#147

Post by intended »

BeetleB wrote: post #88
intended wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India’s pop has been booming for more than 50 years, and we only got independence recently enough that institution building is measured in less than 100 years (to be fair many old colleges exist with older roots, but for the sake of comparison with the entire population, they are a drop in the bucket.) Unfortunately time is not on our side, as it takes a long time to make institutions and good institutional habits. T…

Sorry - beg to differ. 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions. Having lived in multiple countries, it is often clear to me that the reason for any country's woes almost always stems from their culture. Things may be different now, but historically Indian culture valued credentials and degrees a lot more than they did gaining knowledge. And many aspects of culture interfere with education. India is a cou…

As I pointed out, most of India’s exemplary humans left.

The people who got the material, as opposed to just memorizing it, and could explain it in their native language - they’re not here.

While culturally there are issues, these are not responsible for the whole of the problem.

Also do note - Japan, China, and other nations also have this pattern for education.

At our population scale, the American system ceases to be useful since the classroom size is far too large. The problems am imdividual child has multiplied by the class of 40 students means that no teacher has the ability to customize fully.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#148

Post by intended »

BeetleB wrote: post #120
pm90 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point that 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions (e.g. China, South Korea etc.). But I disagree that culture is the culprit. Firstly, Indian culture is incredibly diverse. If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job. If you live in Kerala,…

I agree Indian culture is very diverse - much more so than here in the US, for example. But let's look at some of the examples: >If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job. So most kids in Gujarat are not pressured to complete high school? >If you live in Kerala, I imagi…

You can blame colonialism, it’s not an issue.

Blaming doesn’t fix the problem, which we can agree on.

My point is that expectations of what can be achieved will have to be adjusted. India needs a huge investment of talent and money, and people would rather spend that talent and money to earn US$. The rational choice for individuals is clear.

On top of it class size, difficulty in testing at scale, job scarcity, language issues, discrimination, lack of teachers - make it an intractable problem.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#149

Post by thewhitetulip »

harryVic wrote: post #126
thewhitetulip wrote: post #96

The issue is that kids aren't taught to handle pressure, that is the main problem because parents pamper kids until they go to college! as a child, you are not allowed to have your own decisions, like ever. You eat what your parents tell you to eat, you take admission to undergrad/postgrad about what your parents tell. You study hard as they told you, they even decide when and to whom you lose virginity! (arranged ma…

I agree with you on most things but not the last part. Have you even seen Indian Engineering/Medical entrance exam questions? North American high school exams are a joke compared to Indian Engineering Entrance tests. And IITs are good schools. They aren't ranked as high because they don't fulfil the breadth requirements for those ranking studies. They are purely engineering schools.

And yet there hasn't been one unicorn out of any IITs. All IITians or most of them go out of India. What di I do of the tough entrace exams? What is the use if IITs?

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#150

Post by thewhitetulip »

sn41 wrote: post #146
thewhitetulip wrote: post #96

The issue is that kids aren't taught to handle pressure, that is the main problem because parents pamper kids until they go to college! as a child, you are not allowed to have your own decisions, like ever. You eat what your parents tell you to eat, you take admission to undergrad/postgrad about what your parents tell. You study hard as they told you, they even decide when and to whom you lose virginity! (arranged ma…

I have studied in Indian and American universities. Many "top ranked" American universities have considerably milder requirements than what is required for passing IIT JEE. Ranking is based on a number of factors like funding and number of foreign faculty and students. It has nothing to do with the toughness of the entrance exams. In fact, if you rank institutes according to acceptance ratios, IITs will nearly be the…

Screw acceptance ratios

Tell me how many googles, facebooks have been started by IIT grads. That number ought to count for something right

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