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In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

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Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#111

Post by drzaiusapelord »

adreamingsoul wrote: post #87
osrec wrote: post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Sounds like they are copying the education system here in the USA.

I'd argue that the US, especially in tech, doesn't suffer from "credentialism" like countries like India do. You can go and become an IT professional with zero qualifications and if you're good you can move up the ranks. In other systems you need to have x degree, x certification, or be part of x union, etc.

One of the US's biggest advantages is that low regulation environments help build a meritocracy of sorts as long as obvious corruption is curtailed.

Try being a French tech startup compared to the US and tell me how bad the US's credentialism, education, and regulatory processes are. I think we have it easy and a lot of our culture rewards and encourages 'free thinking' at least for now.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#113

Post by 110011 »

osrec wrote: post #95
110011 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pressure to succeed is immense everywhere, this is hardly a notable feature of Indian society. Others have mentioned this already on this thread but let me paraphrase, basically no one is satisfied with some objective notion of success (like a high standard of living), rather success means to do better than those around you. So if you have three cars parked in your garage in the USA and are living an impossibly c…

Are you suggesting the pressure to succeed in the UK, where there exists a fairly comprehensive safety net in the form of welfare handouts, is the same as the pressure to succeed in India, where your government leaves you pretty much to fend for yourself? If that's what you're suggesting, I disagree.

The answer is a bit nuanced and I am suggesting that it is the case, perhaps about the same instead of being exactly the same. You can argue that the apparent cost of not studying hard in is wildly different in these two countries (basic welfare support vs complete lack thereof). Yes, I agree that when you look at providing for basic material comforts in dire circumstances it obvious which country a person ought to choose, when presented with this hypothetical choice.

But that simply fails to capture the stresses of everyday life. The average person on welfare checks can hardly be assumed to happy and is probably facing intense, if subtle, negative societal feedback for the choices he is forced to make. Do you think this person is happy to eat at McDonalds and wear cheap clothes when everyone around him is upgrading their smartphones. That's why I say that providing for basic material comforts hardly does much to improve the mental well-being. The pressure to succeed is present everywhere, and failing to do so is stressful in all such circumstances, and I would imagine that it would be roughly the same.

Again this is an article on suicides and it is the most extreme form of pressure that anyone can face. The extent to which we can compare the stress on people that aren't doing well (by societal norms) is hard to pin down exactly, and I don't want to make any bold claims there that the stresses must be exactly the same. But I do see that there is a basic similarity here.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#114

Post by pm90 »

110011 wrote: post #86
osrec wrote: post #82

India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative. I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: pa…

Without a doubt all the years of exam preparation in the teenage years come at a steep cost. For a young person in their teens to not have the time to reflect, be self-aware, and explore what life has to offer, is necessarily a failure of the system as a whole. But that is the reality in India, and if students must trade all that for studying hard then it simply reflects their (I would argue correct) perspective on t…

I think you make a good point. The only issue, an important one at that, which I have is the last statement: "And most Indian students, while unable to articulate this, clearly feel these pressures and act accordingly."

Students are younger and much more curious about the world and about what to make of their lives. I would argue its the parents that feel these pressures and transfer that onto their kids. And I don't believe it is simply to give them a good livelihood: both rich and poor parents want their kids to get into these elite institutions. And that is a huge problem.

I grew up in India. While I lucked out that I was naturally inclined to find science and math interesting, a lot of the people I went to college with found it absolutely boring and even torturous to go through their coursework, which was deeply saddening for me personally. I would ask them why they did it if they wanted to do other things? Usually the answer would be because their parents wanted them to be an engineer.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#115

Post by 110011 »

chongli wrote: post #93
110011 wrote: post #40

This is a pretty inane article for placing too much emphasis on a stupid gimmick like anti-suicide ceiling fans, when the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students. I'm Indian and I remember the summer of my 12th grade exams back in 2007 just like yesterday because of some latent awareness that something very important is happening here. I sat in so many exams that summer.…

the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students The underlying issue is that billions of people around the world are being squeezed through an ever shrinking funnel in a desperate attempt to escape poverty. The pressure continues to build, year over year. Looking at it as a "mental health" problem is only one less level removed from the source than looking at it as a "ceilin…

The people referenced in the article, who attend several years specialized coaching preparing for these exams, paying large sums of money in the process, are hardly doing so in "a desperate attempt to escape poverty."

They are simply trying to prepare better than the competition.

Also you seem to get wrong some basic facts about how well the global economy is providing for and improving the state of people around the world. There are no billions that are attempting to escape poverty in the light of some shrinking funnel.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#116

Post by sannee »

pulsarpietro wrote: post #35

All striving to conform, what a waste of minds. Poor people, they should rebel.

> Poor people, they should rebel.

Rebelling against the school system is inverse tragedy of the commons - large individual loss and small societal gain. There is no real incentive to do that.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#117

Post by pm90 »

BeetleB wrote: post #88
intended wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India’s pop has been booming for more than 50 years, and we only got independence recently enough that institution building is measured in less than 100 years (to be fair many old colleges exist with older roots, but for the sake of comparison with the entire population, they are a drop in the bucket.) Unfortunately time is not on our side, as it takes a long time to make institutions and good institutional habits. T…

Sorry - beg to differ. 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions. Having lived in multiple countries, it is often clear to me that the reason for any country's woes almost always stems from their culture. Things may be different now, but historically Indian culture valued credentials and degrees a lot more than they did gaining knowledge. And many aspects of culture interfere with education. India is a cou…

I agree with your point that 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions (e.g. China, South Korea etc.). But I disagree that culture is the culprit.

Firstly, Indian culture is incredibly diverse. If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job. If you live in Kerala, I imagine you are respected well if you go abroad and send remittances back. This is just a couple of difference on how different the cultures can be.

Credential ism is a very recent phenomena in Indian society, in place mostly because of the police-state like rule imposed on Indian society by the British. When all other methods of livelihood are elliminated (mostly, the textiles industry, but also local armaments and artists) and the only good jobs available are those in Government, of course the society will re-orient itself to satisfy those requirements.

There are many other, very good reasons for why Indian Institutions aren't as strong today as they should be. The Origin of Political Order is an excellent book if you're more interested in these things.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#118

Post by stale2002 »

chongli wrote: post #93
110011 wrote: post #40

This is a pretty inane article for placing too much emphasis on a stupid gimmick like anti-suicide ceiling fans, when the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students. I'm Indian and I remember the summer of my 12th grade exams back in 2007 just like yesterday because of some latent awareness that something very important is happening here. I sat in so many exams that summer.…

the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students The underlying issue is that billions of people around the world are being squeezed through an ever shrinking funnel in a desperate attempt to escape poverty. The pressure continues to build, year over year. Looking at it as a "mental health" problem is only one less level removed from the source than looking at it as a "ceilin…

I reject your claim that opportunities are "shinking".

The actual facts show that the world is better than it ever has been in history, and there are more opportunities than ever.

We still have a ways to go to solve all of the world's problems, but we should be proud of how quickly things are getting better, and not worse.

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#119

Post by pvelagal »

110011 wrote: post #40

This is a pretty inane article for placing too much emphasis on a stupid gimmick like anti-suicide ceiling fans, when the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students. I'm Indian and I remember the summer of my 12th grade exams back in 2007 just like yesterday because of some latent awareness that something very important is happening here. I sat in so many exams that summer.…

Problems that are clearly evident :

- Ridiculously redundant number of tests : AIEEE, BITSAT, IITJEE, AIIMS MBBS, JIPMER MBBS, EAMCET/KCET/KEAM/TNEA (state level entrance tests in south india).

- Lack of common syllabus, common books : When every student's ultimate goal is to become a good engineer or a doctor , why so much disparity in the syllabus being taught in various high schools.

Sheer stupidity !

Re: In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis

#120

Post by BeetleB »

pm90 wrote: post #117
BeetleB wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry - beg to differ. 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions. Having lived in multiple countries, it is often clear to me that the reason for any country's woes almost always stems from their culture. Things may be different now, but historically Indian culture valued credentials and degrees a lot more than they did gaining knowledge. And many aspects of culture interfere with education. India is a cou…

I agree with your point that 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions (e.g. China, South Korea etc.). But I disagree that culture is the culprit. Firstly, Indian culture is incredibly diverse. If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job. If you live in Kerala,…

I agree Indian culture is very diverse - much more so than here in the US, for example. But let's look at some of the examples:

>If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a great job.

So most kids in Gujarat are not pressured to complete high school?

>If you live in Kerala, I imagine you are respected well if you go abroad and send remittances back.

To be honest, in my very limited experience, Indians living abroad are responsible for trying to improve quite a few institutions in India (in particular trying to build more educational/social institutions that benefit society in a way that existing ones fail). I honestly don't know if they are from Kerala though.

>Credential ism is a very recent phenomena in Indian society, in place mostly because of the police-state like rule imposed on Indian society by the British.

While I accept blame on the British, things that happened over 70 years ago is not "recent". The failure of not moving away from credentialism does not lie with the British.

>of course the society will re-orient itself to satisfy those requirements.

Incidentally, much of the credentialism existed in Britain as well in those years. Their implementing it in India was merely a way to mirror their own structures. However, the UK today is significantly less focused on these things, yet the sentiment is still strong in India. Yes, of course society re-orients itself to satisfy requirements, but the burden is on the society to re-orient itself once those requirements are no longer there.

BTW, my aim is not to minimize the impact of colonialism. I'm trying to point out that blaming colonialism will never be part of the solution to a country's woes.

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