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California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

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Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#121

Post by kregasaurusrex »

makecheck wrote: post #97
briandear wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California law DOES protect whistleblowers. The law is extremely clear. Those laws even provide for damages due to retailiation.

Even in that situation, if you’re a paycheck-to-paycheck worker, how much boat-rocking can you endure? On some theoretical future date according to the law you can get back at your employer, great: in the meantime, maybe you got fired and now you can’t feed yourself? We’ve seen plenty of companies that shrug off large fines and such. Whatever the rules, it has to reach the point of being seriously unprofitable to dis…

Not to mention the further stigmatization that results from being a whistleblower- having your name in published sources associated with calling out an employer may impact how quickly you can find a new job. Future employers also like seeing $LARGE_CORP experience on a resume, where I've seen colleagues stay at a job they didn't like only for the prestige attached to this line item.

For a worker without this safety net there really isn't reason for them to violate an NDA and have to rely on whistleblower protections for future remidial damages if there isn't a guarantee that their current living situation would be able to be maintained. We saw last week how Apple fired leakers on the spot and have their name blacklisted towards future tech employers as such.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#122

Post by mschuster91 »

avar wrote: post #117
mschuster91 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're low margin and labor intensive ... and thus very vulnerable to strikes or arbitrary price hikes. Yes, a seat is a seat, but once you're locked in into a vendor, you are locked in. Tesla wants to avoid lock-ins as far as possible and especially something where a switch to a different manufacturer is as difficult as a seat. You can switch a vendor for a simple plastic part in a matter of days if the need aris…

> Yes, a seat is a seat, but once you're > locked in into a vendor, you are locked in. How would they get locked into a vendor if a "seat is a seat"? Isn't the entire point that it's a generic and easily sourced component? If it's easy for other car manufacturers at much bigger scales why would it be an issue for Tesla?

> Isn't the entire point that it's a generic and easily sourced component?

On the outside, it is a seat. What is different between manufacturers, and even between cars: dimensions of the components, abilities of the seat (e.g. how many degrees of movement, heating, massage functions), the attachment of the seat to the car itself, the form of the seat... if you want to switch the seat vendor, you have to account for weeks if not months until the new vendor delivers the same final product.

> If it's easy for other car manufacturers at much bigger scales why would it be an issue for Tesla?

They don't switch or only switch at model "refreshments", which is at odds with Teslas always-improving workflow.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#123

Post by api »

watwut wrote: post #63
api wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've shown that it is possible to shorten or lengthen sentences by picking less or more applicable or "conceptually dense" words. Example: "the wall is black" vs "the wall absorbs a significant fraction of the visible light spectrum." God in some form is indeed a simpler and more straightforward concept than evolution, especially when you consider the whole of evolutionary theory beyond Darwin. It's a very deep and…

Or maybe we should stop using the razor, because it us way too often wrong. I the absence of evidence, you don't know and eithe admit that or guess probabilities.

"Razors" of this sort are only rules of thumb that tend to be right often enough to be useful. They are not laws of nature.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#124

Post by briandear »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #64
StudentStuff wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its horrifying how Musk treats his workers, its very reminiscent of what Amazon does to most of its employees here in Seattle. Unpaid overtime for warehouse workers? Definitely, as long as the worker doesn't squawk to L&I! Work your developers 10 hours a day, then guilt trip them to coming in on Sunday? Amazon does this constantly. Tesla, SpaceX and Blue Origin seem to have the same work culture as Amazon, even Micro…

This is 100% the "move fast and break things" culture SV has come to adore over the last decade. Things also includes employees and pesky labor laws.

Really? How does Facebook, Apple, Salesforce, Intel, etc. violate labor laws or mistreat their employees? You can’t use a few companies as a proxy for the entire valley.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#125

Post by rgbrenner »

localhost wrote: post #112
rgbrenner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been true across the board at Tesla... they make almost all of the parts in house, even when there are established reliable providers... even when it costs them more and results in lower quality.. even when they are already short staffed. Musk is pro-NIH syndrome. In fairness, Musk says they will eventually be as reliable, and as high quality as others and it'll be cheaper.. one day. That's the common NIH fa…

There are quite a few parts in the Model S that come from suppliers. The steering wheel, window / mirror controls all appear to come from the same folks that supply Mercedes. I don't know where the parts for the Model 3 come from - the steering wheel and window / mirror controls are definitely different.

Yes, but Tesla has the highest rate of vertical integration in the industry. In 2016, Goldman visited their factory and put it at 80% vertically integrated: https://www.valuewalk.com/2016/02/tesla-stock-rallies-after-...

And they've brought in house more since then (like the seats).

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#126

Post by danso »

briandear wrote: post #124
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% the "move fast and break things" culture SV has come to adore over the last decade. Things also includes employees and pesky labor laws.

Really? How does Facebook, Apple, Salesforce, Intel, etc. violate labor laws or mistreat their employees? You can’t use a few companies as a proxy for the entire valley.

Wait, seriously? You've never heard about Uber? Or this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-job...

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#127

Post by sincerely »

briandear wrote: post #124
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% the "move fast and break things" culture SV has come to adore over the last decade. Things also includes employees and pesky labor laws.

Really? How does Facebook, Apple, Salesforce, Intel, etc. violate labor laws or mistreat their employees? You can’t use a few companies as a proxy for the entire valley.

I don't think any of those companies represent the "move fast and break things" ethos at this point either.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#128

Post by briandear »

lovich wrote: post #94
kitsunesoba wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I’m seeing a lot of assumptions that unions are purely (or at least mostly) forces of good, but that’s not necessarily true. Auto workers’ unions in particular have a reputation of being bullies, extortionists, and sometimes obstructionists. Unionization of Tesla may improve conditions for the workers (though it’s worth noting that many auto union member companies still have serious unaddressed issues) but it’d…

The company could just improve the situation enough that the workers don't want to unionize. Losing your agility isn't a good enough argument to convince people to not negotiate a better situation for themselves when you are literally destroying their bodies. It's not even like they are acting the same as the rest of the industry. Directly in the article it says that they have much higher injury rates than the rest o…

They are saying Tesla isn’t reporting injuries and then they say Tesla has higher injuries? If they aren’t being reported, then what’s the source of that claim? Do we know for a fact that other companies aren’t also (allegedly) underreporting? Reporting about Ford or GM is far less sexy than Tesla, so there could be less incentive.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#129

Post by Animats »

The real problem for Tesla is that their destiny is probably to be the next BMW - a good midrange luxury car maker, about #12 in the world on volume. That would be fine except for the excessive market cap. Tesla's market cap exceeded GM's at one point. The stock has to come down a lot if Tesla ends up at BMW's scale. Even with Tesla's most optimistic production estimates, Tesla will make far fewer cars than BMW in the next few years.

Silicon Valley has a few other companies like that, Uber and Twitter being the most prominent.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#130

Post by lowbloodsugar »

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

"A set of universal rules by which the moon exerts a force called "gravity" and that pulls at the ocean over the whole planet, which is spherical by the way, so we get a bulge on both sides because on the near side it makes the water go towards the moon because gravity attracts things, but on the other side it makes the water go away from the moon or at least it looks like that, but really it's still gravity causing it, and that is why we get tides twice a day"

vs

"Neptune is breathing, and so the ocean goes up and down, just like when you are in the tub and take a deep breath"

Now use Occam's Razor.

If you were unaware of the persistent activities of various organizations then you might think that unions creating false information is an absurd idea, just as you might feel about the tides if you were a simple peasant, ignorant of the work of physicists.

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