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Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

theguardian.com

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Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#121

Post by yters »

esarbe wrote: post #118
yters wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mining is a legitimate need. Men don't need prostitutes. What men need is to treat women as equal human beings, and not a vessel for their lusts.

You make it sound as if lust was something bad. Interesting. Sexual intercourse is as much a necessity as is mining. More so, I'd say. Humans are not mining machines, they are reproduction machines. To deny this is to deny human nature. Also, sex in and in itself has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. It's simply a physical act.

It is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#122

Post by yters »

esarbe wrote: post #115
yters wrote: post #104

What kind of 'feminist' community is HN when men want women to let strangers abuse their bodies? 'Feminist' men are merely cads taking advantage of women using politically correct language. Anyways, if this is the sort of 'pro-women' environment HN wants to foster, count me out.

You make it seem as if there was an universal feminist agreement that sex work should be illegal. It's not. There are plenty (female) hard-core 2nd-wave feminists that are all for legalization of prostitution, citing self-empowerment, economic empowerment and the acceptance of female sexuality.

You fail to distinguish between what people who call themselves "feminists" want, and what actually is in the best interest of women. If feminists suddenly started saying forced teenage marriages to abusive old men was in the best interest of women, they'd be wrong. Same in the case of prostitution.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#123

Post by JoeAltmaier »

yters wrote: post #117
commandlinefan wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

abuse? That's a bit of a stretch.

STDs, unplanned pregnancies, any number of horrible things men might do to the prostitutes, the psychological abuse of having one's body be treated as an instrument for another's pleasure, of having one's humanity be reduced to being a sex doll.

I don't mean to diminish the hardships of prostitution. But its a matter of degree, isn't it? What performance artist isn't reduced to an instrument for another?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#124

Post by orthecreedence »

yters wrote: post #120
rosser wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of them. Some women (and some men!) consciously and specifically choose to engage in sex work. The way we're trying to "protect" the people being trafficked into sex work is putting them, and the ones who do it voluntarily, in even more danger. Legalizing and regulating sex work protects them all so much more, but entirely too many of us would rather moralize about others' choices than approach the problem wi…

Let's imagine a world where prostitution is entirely legalized and regulated. We still have rampant STDs, unplanned pregnancies, the dehumanizing of women, etc. The field itself is inherently destructive to all participants.

Right. So we have what we have now, but sex workers, in general, are much safer. Seems like a win to me.

It's fine if you don't like prostitution, but what is your practical proposed solution for erradicating it?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#125

Post by adjkant »

chacham15 wrote: post #98
dilap wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

Honest question: if people wanted to participate in fights to the death where the winner gets an absurd amount of money, should that be legal? If not, then whats that defining difference? If so, what long term effect do you think this will have? Again, I'm asking because I dont know. To me, I think the above example would cause a lot of public harm in that people would be pressured into giving up their lives to poten…

I think you hit on an important point: public harm

Your scenario doesn't exist because these fights aren't a good deal/risk for most people. Prostitution is a lot more popular because it's not a risk, it's a sacrifice.

The point being, the societal harm of outlawing your suggestion is little, but the societal harm of outlawing prostitution is much more than prostitution itself causes. At least I think that's a reasonable conclusion, as many others advocating for prostitution legality do. In addition to ownership of one's own body, etc.

> To me, I think the above example would cause a lot of public harm in that people would be pressured into giving up their lives to potentially save their families from poverty. But at the same time, that reasoning could be applied to prostitution.

Another problem is that this is quiiiiite a stretch. Prostitution is not giving up your life, it's a profession. In some cases people even enjoy the profession, though this is not to imply that most or even many do. Should we say all unhappy accountants are sacrificing their lives as well? Prostitutes can still have normal fulfilling lives. You can't if you're dead in your example.

Aren't we all pressured into working in order to survive?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#126

Post by AFNobody »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #17
AFNobody wrote: post #3

> Donald Trump is expected to sign the law this week, but sex workers across the country told the Guardian they were already suffering consequences. Craigslist shut down its personals section, and federal authorities seized Backpage.com, releasing an indictment this week accusing its founders of money laundering and “facilitating prostitution”. The list of charges did not include trafficking. And just a reminder this…

Just like SOPA wasn't necessary when they took down Mega Upload by arresting people accross the world without SOPA or any of the proposed bills that followed....

It is almost like they are lying about the need for more power.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#127

Post by esarbe »

yters wrote: post #117
commandlinefan wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

abuse? That's a bit of a stretch.

STDs, unplanned pregnancies, any number of horrible things men might do to the prostitutes, the psychological abuse of having one's body be treated as an instrument for another's pleasure, of having one's humanity be reduced to being a sex doll.

All these issues -- potential physical and mental problems -- you cite apply to other professions as well. Why treat prostitution any different? Obviously there's a need for this kind of work. Why not make sure that at least the workers doing this kind of job enjoy the same protection as other workers?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#128

Post by yters »

orthecreedence wrote: post #119
rosser wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of them. Some women (and some men!) consciously and specifically choose to engage in sex work. The way we're trying to "protect" the people being trafficked into sex work is putting them, and the ones who do it voluntarily, in even more danger. Legalizing and regulating sex work protects them all so much more, but entirely too many of us would rather moralize about others' choices than approach the problem wi…

> harm reduction in mind. Yep. I'm seeing many, many comments about how prositution is bad. I'm not seeing any that suggest workable alternatives. Most seem to be socialist-leaning (attaching market incentive to sex is bad), but we don't have socialism, and sex workers need protection now . Ok, so whether or not we agree that prostitution is bad, what do we do about it? I think legalizing/regulating makes a lot more…

Are people more likely to do something that is safe or is dangerous?

We can make similar arguments for all illegal activities. Why don't we make murder safer for the murderers? They're going to murder anyways, so we might as well keep one of the parties alive and healthy. Why don't we just give thieves all the free money they want? They are going to steal anyways, so we might as well make it more convenient for them.

In short, why have rules with negative repercussions at all? People are going to do 'wrong' anyways, so let's instead of doing something negative to them, make it as positive an experience as possible.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#129

Post by ocdtrekkie »

yters wrote: post #91

It's interesting seeing all the men supporting 'sex work' when it is the woman who is left to deal with the repercussions of her body being used and abused for money. The real problem is not the crack down, but the social forces that make women feel like this is the only source of income available to them, and the dirtbag men who take advantage of them. This does not boost my opinion of internet "intellectuals", nor…

I am male and expressed an opinion that prostitution should be legal. But I have no desire to ever actually use such a service personally.

My opinion is based largely on the fact that there are plenty of women who want to do this, or particularly enjoy it, as well as the unfortunate cases of people who feel they have no other choice. In either of those cases, punishing the people who are in this industry is wrong.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#130

Post by brighteyes »

whack wrote: post #12

It's really sad to hear about sex workers fearing for their very lives, let alone their livelihood. These are some of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable members of society. Their lives could be so much better if we moved towards Netherlands/German-style legalization. Instead, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. I wonder who exactly the opponents of sex-legalization are trying to "protect". Trafficking v…

> I wonder who exactly the opponents of sex-legalization are trying to "protect". Trafficking victims? They will be vastly better served by a well regulated workplace. The sex workers themselves? I think this article debunks that myth.

To play devils advocate,

* Regulation does reduce the risk, but reducing the risk may also increase the amount. Similar to legalizing drugs making them less dangerous but also more common.

* The article doesn't debunk the other position, as the sex workers interviewed may not be representative of the majority. That is exactly the claim put forth by the proponents, in fact (whether it is true or not, I don't think we can tell).

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