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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#431

Post by chimeracoder »

jimnotgym wrote: post #240

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

> ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care?

For a long time after EMV chips were introduced, the liability was actually shifted back to the customer. EMV chips were initially a huge step backwards for customer protection, and it took some years before this was fixed in law across Europe.

Nowadays, if you see a merchant who can't accept EMV chips, it's likely their POS vendor who's liable. The merchant is liable in theory, but some vendors still don't provide EMV-capable terminals, so they've agreed to assume the risk until they do.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#432

Post by ghaff »

ryandrake wrote: post #428
Nursie wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternatively, I can fiddle with my phone, get it to recognize me, hope it works, etc. which--even if it doesn't always take longer--is certainly less deterministic while the person behind me is probably going through their own version of the internal sigh I have when the person in front of me is fiddling with some non-routine payment method. I don't recognise this at all. Pull phone out of pocket, touch the finger…

Pull phone out of pocket, touch the reader, nothing happens. Theory 1: I’m not touching the reader in the right place. Maybe the sensor is on this side or that. Try hovering the phone all over the POS box. Theory 2: Maybe my phone is not working. Try waving it around again while cashier has this “get your shit together” look on his face. Pull out CC. Theory 3: The reader supports NFC but not ApplePay, so now I’ve was…

Or the arbitrary transaction limit is set to less than the amount I owe.

At least domestically, I find credit cards almost always straightforward while Apple Pay is hit or miss having the line behind me giving me dirty looks because the entitled tech shit is holding up checkout playing with their gadget.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#433

Post by MatthewWilkes »

gst wrote: post #398
MatthewWilkes wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it also depends on what buttons they press. I believe if they select credit card it forces it to be a signature.

That's only for US debit cards where a debit transaction requires a PIN code, but a credit transaction prefers signatures. For credit cards with PIN preference it shouldn't make a difference, as it's up to the card to decide which mode to use (based on the options that are supported by the terminal).

I know some terminals here in the UK lie about their capabilities, for example they'll tell the card they're offline only even if they do support online transactions.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#434

Post by chimeracoder »

lmm wrote: post #310
ashleyn wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK chip and pin shifts liability for fraud onto the credit customer. While banks may be more than eager to do so, they may also be wary of a customer backlash over this.

In the UK the law remains what it always was - the customer is not liable unless they enabled the fraud. (I'm right now in the process of getting my card replaced after fraudulent charges that I can only assume were put through as though they were chip and pin). In the early days there was a concern that the courts would believe that chip and pin proved the customer was responsible (i.e. that the mere fact of a succe…

> In the early days there was a concern that the courts would believe that chip and pin proved the customer was responsible (i.e. that the mere fact of a successful transaction with chip and pin technology necessarily proved the customer had told the fraudster their pin), but it seems fair to say the reality of chip and pin fraud has set in now.

This actually was true across Europe for the first few years when EMV chips were rolled out. It took some time before they passed a law which absolved customers of liability for fraud processed as EMV transactions.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#435

Post by ciaranm »

kozhevnikov wrote: post #321
criddell wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm visiting London this summer (I'm from Texas). Normally, I pay for everything with American Express. Would you recommend I get a different card for London? I wonder if there's a US card that support chip and pin?

A lot of businesses in the UK/Europe do not accept American Express due to higher fees. You would be better off getting a different card preferably that supports contactless payments so you could use it on the tube and buses instead of an Oyster card (remember to touch it on the way out as well). https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless

Mostly it's fine using AMEX. There's enough exceptions I carry another card, but it's not that bad.

Also: TFL accept AMEX contactless as payment/oyster equivalent.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#436

Post by malnourish »

davepage wrote: post #397
criddell wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just looking for a chip-and-pin card that I (as an American) could get for traveling to the UK and apparently there really isn't much out there. I think all of the US cards that support chip and pin prioritize signature over pin. I also found this Visa page explaining that PIN isn't used in the US because it's too expensive: https://usa.visa.com/visa-everywhere/security/the-cost-of-pi...

FWIW, I set an ATM PIN for a US issued CC and found the PIN worked for retail terminals in NZ. YMMV

I hope that didn't count as a cash advance

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#437

Post by ryandrake »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #213
koolba wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It inherently relies on the legal system to sort things out after the fact, ... This is why it’s critical to have transaction alerts for all activity for your financial accounts. Otherwise you could have an ACH slip through that drains your account. You wouldn’t notice till the next time you logged in or, more likely, when you try to use your debit card and realize it’s cleaned out.

that drains your account. This is barely dangerous imo. Inconvenient perhaps but not dangerous. The reason being your bank will refund the money. The dangerous ones are those that take tiny amounts monthly that you just won't notice.

> The dangerous ones are those that take tiny amounts monthly that you just won't notice.

Wait, what? How are you not going to notice? Every transaction is a line on your statement which, I think, all banks issue monthly.

Besides, if you have a computer, you can download all transactions (to Quicken or similar software) every day or two and verify all your new transactions. If you have a phone, Many banks and cards can even be set up to notify you on each transaction.

If there was fraud on my account I’d know instantly, at worst within two days.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#438

Post by JoeAltmaier »

semanticist wrote: post #404
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal? You can do lots about it; in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it. I'd rant about "this generation is so entitled" but hey that post says it all.

How do you even know the person you're replying to is of a different generation? I'm no millennial, but I've frequently not been able to leave a tip while paying for dinner in the UK because I've paid by card and had literally no cash on me. I've felt bad about not leaving a tip for good service, but I know that the servers will at lease make minimum wage before tips, unlike in the US. The whole point of this entire…

The sub-topic was the idea that it 'wasn't my fault' that tipping got inconvenient and so they didn't do it. Lets not rewrite what was just posted. Rewriting a situation to feel better about oneself is symptomatic of the issue here.

Everybody on HN is of a different generation than me. Not rocket science.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#439

Post by cja »

notoverthere wrote: post #414
cup-of-tea wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely use chip and pin any more. Contactless is everywhere. The UK is the most advanced in this regard, though.

Is the UK most advanced? In Australia they can pay for anything up to $100 with tap. Over $100, they can still tap, but then need to enter their PIN into the terminal (i.e. no need to insert the card for PIN entry – a tap is sufficient). We don't have that in the UK.

Similar in Poland. You can always tap and then it asks for PIN or it doesn't. I expect this decision is based on the amount of the purchase and maybe some other factors.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#440

Post by cja »

dtech wrote: post #342
criddell wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm visiting London this summer (I'm from Texas). Normally, I pay for everything with American Express. Would you recommend I get a different card for London? I wonder if there's a US card that support chip and pin?

Credit cards in general are not too popular in Europe, they're either not accepted at all or only Visa and Mastercard are accepted. A Maestro debit card is your best bet and will work in almost all terminals in Europe.

Which bit of Europe do you mean? I live in Europe and almost always use card.
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