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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#301

Post by cylinder »

pjc50 wrote: post #299
blueside wrote: post #8

Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for quite some time now. I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number verification, tap to pay)

The FT suggests this is a regulation vs competition problem, where regulation has "won": https://www.ft.com/content/03a1f4b0-06d3-11e4-ba32-00144feab... It's a bit of a prisoners-dilemma thing: new technology can only be adopted with sufficient coordination, but each individual party is only interested in cooperating if they think they will "win" from it more than their competitors . The US seems to be a very bad pla…

I don’t know, Australia’s got only four banks which dominate the market and yet they are pretty aggressive in innovative products. We just got instant bank transfers and that required cooperation amongst them to adopt standards and protocols.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#302

Post by Jare »

bradknowles wrote: post #235
adventured wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because you're from out of country. You'll almost never be asked to produce ID with a standard credit card purchase in the US, unless it's unusual in amount. I'm in my late 30s and have never once been asked to produce proof of ID in relation to a standard credit card purchase. Whether at a grocery store, restaurant, etc. I've never seen anyone else have to show ID either, maybe once in the 1980s.

I write “please check ID” on the back of all my cards. I’m astonished when someone actually does check my ID. It happens maybe once or twice a year.

I've been doing this for 2 decades. I once had a surreal experience when one store clerk in the US complained that my signature did not match the one in the back of the card. My pleas of "that's not a signature, it's a request to check my ID, which you haven't done" did not move him so I had to request his manager's presence.

It only happened once and that was many (15+) years ago, but if you ever wondered if it could happen, yeah it could. :)

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#303

Post by pjc50 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #91
sleet wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never used it.

Do you still live with your parents or rent from a slum lord who only takes cash? Most landlords seem to only take cash or checks, it's really only the national apartment companies that take online payments.

In the UK this was all done by bank standing order; the landlords didn't want the inconvenience of handling cheques either.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#304

Post by htgb »

arghwhat wrote: post #284
blueside wrote: post #8

Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for quite some time now. I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number verification, tap to pay)

DK never even had credit card signatures. Our systems support it for foreigners, but I was so confused the first time I saw that. Everyone uses NFC credit cards now (and if the amount is over ~$40 or a daily limit has been reached, with pin). For us, chip and pin is basically deprecated, and no one has used magnetic strips in a decade.

In Sweden, signatures are available opt-in, but many stores get confused if you press the button for it.

–"The system says 'signature needed', was that intentional?"

It _is_ practical though, if you forget your pin code and need to pay something.

It used to be very common in bars/clubs too, at least before contact-free cards, to speed up the payments.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#305

Post by lucozade »

arghwhat wrote: post #286
kirillseva wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because legacy tech wants to be amortised over long time periods. If you start implementing things later you can pick the best tech. US banking was among the first to become digital and thus still has to maintain technical choices of the past

The resistance to change can be explained much simpler: It benefits only consumers, while costing the banks and payment providers. It's the same excuses for still having critical banking infrastructure written in COBOL.

> It benefits only consumers, while costing the banks and payment providers

Hogwash. Yes I know all bankers live in extinct volcanoes but one thing they know a lot about is money. It is ridiculously expensive to support the US's conservatism when it comes to finance. The lack of chip and pin pales into insignificance compared to their addiction to paper checks, for example.

It would be completely in the banks' interests if everyone moved to internet banking, NFC cards etc because the running costs and fraud costs are vastly less. The problem is all those pesky, inertia-laden customers.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#306

Post by q3k »

gst wrote: post #224
rav wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those cards work great in Europe, but are sometimes a pain to use in the US. E.g., if you're paying at a restaurant and you have to go with the waiter to the terminal in some backroom, because the terminal asks for the pin. Huh? I have a European card (chip & PIN, PIN preference), and at restaurants in the US I've always signed and never had to go to the terminal in some backroom.

Depends on the restaurant. Most of the times the terminal doesn't support PINs and so it falls back to signatures. But some restaurants use PIN-capable terminals in which case that issue occurs.

I've had a restaurant in silicon valley (three years ago?) tell me that they couldn't use my card because the machine kept asking for some number and they kept entering zeroes and it didn't work.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#307

Post by bkor »

rav wrote: post #206
gst wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most European cards use Chip & PIN with pin preference: If the terminal supports it the card will ask for a chip instead of a signature. Chip-based signature transactions are only used as fallback if the terminal doesn't support pins (which is very uncommon). Unfortunately most US cards don't use a pin code at all. There are a few issuers that provide you with a pin code, but even in those cases there's typically a s…

> Those cards work great in Europe, but are sometimes a pain to use in the US. E.g., if you're paying at a restaurant and you have to go with the waiter to the terminal in some backroom, because the terminal asks for the pin. Huh? I have a European card (chip & PIN, PIN preference), and at restaurants in the US I've always signed and never had to go to the terminal in some backroom.

> I have a European card (chip & PIN, PIN preference), and at restaurants in the US I've always signed and never had to go to the terminal in some backroom.

I had that a few times in Asia (think Vietnam). I quite appreciate the times it happened. Instead of taking my credit card then hoping for the best I specifically have to authorize the transaction. In Europe they usually just bring you a portable device.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#308

Post by ashleyn »

jimnotgym wrote: post #240

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

AFAIK chip and pin shifts liability for fraud onto the credit customer. While banks may be more than eager to do so, they may also be wary of a customer backlash over this.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#309

Post by rypskar »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #248
sitepodmatt wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When paying by card you can still stick a few pounds or dollars in the sleeve. Even when CC receipts had the open Tip: ____ line most times I would zero it and leave a cash tip when a tip was in order, off the books, not % skimming to cover merchant fees etc..

> When paying by card you can still stick a few pounds or dollars in the sleeve. That would seem cheesy af to me. Like "Here have some money you poor thing!"

What I have been told is that they want the tips in cash to not leave a trail for tax authorities to see. If they get the tip in cash they don't report it as income, if the tip is added to the card it get registered as tip and tax have to be paid. So basically tip is not only a way to get around paying the workers a livable salary but also a way to avoid taxes

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#310

Post by lmm »

ashleyn wrote: post #308
jimnotgym wrote: post #240

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

AFAIK chip and pin shifts liability for fraud onto the credit customer. While banks may be more than eager to do so, they may also be wary of a customer backlash over this.

In the UK the law remains what it always was - the customer is not liable unless they enabled the fraud. (I'm right now in the process of getting my card replaced after fraudulent charges that I can only assume were put through as though they were chip and pin). In the early days there was a concern that the courts would believe that chip and pin proved the customer was responsible (i.e. that the mere fact of a successful transaction with chip and pin technology necessarily proved the customer had told the fraudster their pin), but it seems fair to say the reality of chip and pin fraud has set in now.
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