‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#121

Post by realandreskytt » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:30 AM UTC

duxup wrote: post #107

Alterlife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

How does Aadhaar stop corruption? You think the corrupt are just going to check in with their fingerprints and "Oh man you caught me?" This seems like a system that will just hit those with lesser means. I'm not sure I see that as equality or something that would stop corruption.

A computer cant be bribed. Move transactions online, cut out the middleman and corruption goes down. To do this, you need a strong national identity scheme. Aashaar is a good start but would need to be augmented with derived authentication mechanisms (preferably pki) to reduce reliance on the biometrics

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#122

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

realandreskytt wrote: post #121

duxup wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Aadhaar stop corruption? You think the corrupt are just going to check in with their fingerprints and "Oh man you caught me?" This seems like a system that will just hit those with lesser means. I'm not sure I see that as equality or something that would stop corruption.

A computer cant be bribed. Move transactions online, cut out the middleman and corruption goes down. To do this, you need a strong national identity scheme. Aashaar is a good start but would need to be augmented with derived authentication mechanisms (preferably pki) to reduce reliance on the biometrics

> A computer cant be bribed.

The people responsible for it can, though.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#123

Post by rishav_sharan » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:37 AM UTC

ashwinm wrote: post #58

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.

Innever heard of anyone having Aadhar before this govt came to power so i dont think this assertion holds

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#124

Post by eklavya » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:55 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #3

> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is…

Except: - you "seem" to not know/care how many illegal immigrants are there in India. - you "seem" not to know/care about dead people receiving benefits. - you "seem" not to know/care about people being born, widowed, died all on paper with no real person ever having existed. - you "seem" not to know/care about multiple PAN cards (for tax) being issued to a single person. - you "seem" not to know/care about people receiving payments after cuts (commissions) to local enforcers. - so on ...

What exactly stops you from getting an Aadhar card when its free and centres everywhere? How is this totalitarian, who is benefitting from all this? What alternative would solve all this?

For the record the current privacy situation with Aadhar is a fucking nightmare but like all things it will evolve (but obviously with pressure from the citizens).

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#125

Post by enugu » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:22 AM UTC

Leaving this issue aside for a moment, dealing with massive corruption in the govt requires an opposite approach - monitoring the government. Publicly available data which allows any citizen to lookup the details of the programs running in their locality, apps which allow public audits of quality of service of roads etc.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#126

Post by fgpwd » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #83

iguy wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus much of the database has leaked. Honest question: how much does this matter? For instance, I believe in Denmark your ID number is simply not a secret at all, no more than your name. While in the US, your SSN & address basically seems to let any crook empty your bank account.

Aadhaar number enables identity fraud. Since paper-aadhaar is still very much accepted as a proof, just having the number is enough (in many cases) to take over someone's identity and get a new SIM issued, which you can then use for emptying the bank account. There are also phishing scams happening with Aadhaar since it uses OTP as the authentication factor. We have OTPs as 2FA for bank transactions, and it works bec…

SMS is not safe as a 2 factor.

The known attacks I have come across in India include the hacker somehow coming across your sim card number and using that to get a new sim card issued in your name. A lot of people have had their bank accounts drained this way (source: social media posts)

There was another thread in an yesterday on this where someone mentioned they could just rent a cell tower in Malaysia at $10 an hour and broadcast your number as roaming there to get your messages. Also mentioned were mobile number porting attacks though I don't know how viable that would be in India.

There are so many apps with the permission to read your messages on Android. I wonder how many of these upload your messages to the cloud. An attacker could simply get the OTP from there. By creating a malicious app or attacking the database of another app uploading your messages. Also possibly your sim card number which I have seen apps broadcasting in the open, unencrypted.

Another scenario - let's say you have a prepaid connection. You go abroad on a vacation without this number or get sick or whatever, and forget to recharge your phone. The provider can stop your services and give your sim to a new user. The new user now gets all your OTPs.

There are probably more attacks. Messages to your phone are just not a safe choice for 2-factor authentication, but sadly that is the base on which aadhar is built upon. Even today one can open a bank account with just an aadhar number and an OTP. Wait till people start taking loans in others' names.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#127

Post by si1verbu11et » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

buvanshak wrote: post #112

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

>how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. A man comes to you and ask you for money. He says that he is hungry. In this case, you have two options. 1. You can give him the money. But you risk being scammed, because you cannot actually check that the man is actually hungry. If you give them money, there is no way to make sure th…

The indian government has traditionally subsidized rations and fuel over the decades. This system was gamed massively by middlemen and black marketeers. Linking Aadhar to this system has certainly plugged many holes. The issue of misuse of data by the government is still a concern. People in power are corrupt more often than not, so it's a matter when and not if aadhar will be misused by the authorities.

>As a solid implementation, instead of providing rations for rice and fuel, to prepare food, what if governments can open hotels, where one can have a solid, healthy meal for real cheap, For any one and every one who bothers to show up?

This is also being tried, eg amma canteen -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amma_Unavagam by Jayalalitha aka amma in the state of tamil nadu.named after the politician convicted by the ocurt for corruption and who never served a sentence. also, Indira canteen -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Canteens by rahul gandhi in Karnataka. named after India's first woman prime minister(grand mother of rahul gandhi and daughter of nehru who was India's first prime minister).

hero worship and dynasty politics in food subsidy programs funded by the tax payer. The food is good though or so I hear.

Technology can certainly ease our pain, or will it make it worse?

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#128

Post by microcolonel » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:59 AM UTC

fooker wrote: post #118

microcolonel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in the world do clerks spend all day answering FOI/RTI queries? I feel people greatly overestimate the typical volume of requests, having personally known at least three FOI officers in two jurisdictions. When you're seeing elevated request volume, it's likely that there's something substantial worth requesting, which is exactly the point of this form of legislation.

Keeping my analogy, developers do not spend the whole day at meetings, but meeting to fix bugs are not generally worth it. Also, when there is a high volume of meetings, there is likely something wrong. I know for a fact that in the Indian Railways, people spend weeks digging up information required to answer RTI queries. Instead of going by feelings ask government employees (preferably someone with a high level view…

> I know for a fact that in the Indian Railways, people spend weeks digging up information required to answer RTI queries.

The usual solution to a problem like that is to publish the frequently requested types of information in bulk, before they need to be requested, since they are public records by definition. It costs a bit more than doing nothing, but not nearly as much as corruption does.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#129

Post by vijaybritto » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

Alterlife wrote: post #52

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

Enforcing law and order should take away corruption from the country, not a high risk scheme like this. I'm not really comfortable with linking anything because this govt literally gets away with murder. These things only enable them to pin point us easily when we resist. I voted for them despite my friends' advice. Seriously regret it now.

There are numerous countries in the world who have a very low rate of corruption without forcing the citizens to enroll in a scheme like this.

If you think digitizing would reduce corruption you cannot be more mistaken. Its only a matter of time before they figure out other ways. It will reduce only when the citizens respect/fear law and order.

This scheme has a lot of power more than we can comprehend and I don't want it under corrupt hands. As you said, from a person who is so insecure about his own educational qualification that he has lied with a fake degree and does not allow a fair probe into it.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#130

Post by fgpwd » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 6:24 AM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #37

Zak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

That's not how it works. Your aadhar account is linked to one number. Why do you need to link all your numbers to your aadhar?

Besides the link is not two way. Case in point - a friend forgot to recharge their phone. The phone went out of service. Another person got the phone and started getting my friend's aadhar otps. Even though they got the phone using their own aadhar number. The "link your phone to aadhar when you need a new connection" has got nothing to do with "link your aadhar number to your phone in order to get authentication OTPs".

They are two entirely different processes.