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‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#101

Post by fooker »

captn3m0 wrote: post #59
Alterlife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.

That is like saying that the right way to fix bugs is by conducting meetings to grill the programmer.

Sure, it can work but it does not scale. If clerks spend all day manually answering RTI queries who will do the work?

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#102

Post by ekianjo »

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

> A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians)... to take care of its citizens.

Libertarians are for a strong state capable of upholding the Law. What libertarians are against is a BIG state that goes beyond its role into the private sphere of its citizens (that's why we have constitutions and such systems to clearly define boundaries).

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#103

Post by fareesh »

captn3m0 wrote: post #59
Alterlife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.

RTI puts a target on your back if you ask the wrong questions. So many have died already.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#104

Post by incompatible »

captn3m0 wrote: post #38
shripadk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question. I guess you are attacking this issue keeping privacy in mind. However, from the Government's point of view, the need for linking mobile phones is to have a secured way of authenticating your Aadha…

While your argument is sound (2-way linking with Aadhaar saves the government from litigation), it is not the argument that the GoI has made for SIM linking. The AG has argued in court that mobile linking is to prevent terrorists from getting Aadhaar. This is on top of the weird order that DoT issued: https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supre... (tl;dr: DoT quotes a Supreme Court ruling which quest…

The "terrorists" argument always seems like a big red herring in these discussions. But it's an interesting point that if the government decides you are a "terrorist", which maybe they can do without you ever being convicted of anything, you can be shut out of much of society by being deprived of I.D.

On the other hand, somebody the government doesn't suspect can simply sign up for I.D. like anybody else and carry out an attack at their convenience.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#105

Post by microcolonel »

fooker wrote: post #101
captn3m0 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.

That is like saying that the right way to fix bugs is by conducting meetings to grill the programmer. Sure, it can work but it does not scale. If clerks spend all day manually answering RTI queries who will do the work?

Where in the world do clerks spend all day answering FOI/RTI queries? I feel people greatly overestimate the typical volume of requests, having personally known at least three FOI officers in two jurisdictions.

When you're seeing elevated request volume, it's likely that there's something substantial worth requesting, which is exactly the point of this form of legislation.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#106

Post by thetruthseeker1 »

captn3m0 wrote: post #84
thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your solution ? It kind of seems like Aadhar should be better managed... rather than reinvent another identity system, sure I am optimistic that Aadhar will improve (Its a very new system compared to SSN or other identity systems) Regarding ballooning costs, so many successful programs have had costs that exceeded the plan, so far with Aadhar there has been no evidence that the ballooning costs have been debi…

I'm just a security researcher, and unfortunately I don't have any concrete suggestions. I'm hoping that the Supreme Court takes a favorable approach to this madness and limits the damage (by asking the government to stick to its 2015 order which limited mandatory usage of aadhaar to 3 schemes only, for eg). On balooning costs - Yes, the scope has vastly increased: 1. it was supposed to be a YES/NO boolean API, which…

I am sure that I can find flaws in some of the best identity systems in the world - but I am not sure if just finding faults make a good discussion hence I am not going to do that (in addition to not want being labeled a cynic).

Also when you say the costs are not proportional to the benefits... I don’t know if it needs to be proportional, also is there a well researchered study that talks negatively about the overall value provided - I find that hard to believe ?

Usually legislature is free to spend money on programs as long as it is not against the law or constitution and judiciary can’t interfere on such matters. I don’t know what is in the scope of S.C w.r.t Aadhar - I can see some kind of violation of civil liberties within its scope... but I can’t see how cost benefit analysis is within SC’s scope. So I may not comment on it until it plays out.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#107

Post by duxup »

Alterlife wrote: post #52
firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

How does Aadhaar stop corruption? You think the corrupt are just going to check in with their fingerprints and "Oh man you caught me?"

This seems like a system that will just hit those with lesser means. I'm not sure I see that as equality or something that would stop corruption.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#108

Post by blackoil »

fma wrote: post #99
saagarjha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I quite understand how this is going to fight corruption. How are you going to track money that's being moved illegally? Presumably, nobody is going to be doing this under their Aadhaar card; it's all going to be in cash. Plus, how would you even access Aadhaar card information to audit this? Are you going to call up the government and ask for them to check Modi's card to make sure he hasn't been stealin…

Can't be all cash...so that helps. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/business/india-bans-large...

It is still all cash. Govt. removed 1000 INR note, only to introduce a 2000 INR note. This was done as a surprise move under foolish assumption that people hoarding black money, would lose all and we'll get a fresh start. Naturally people being smarter then government, found ways to transfer it all taking 5-10% in laundering charges.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#110

Post by navinsylvester »

Why Aadhaar[1] is evil:

  #1 Aadhaar has been foisted on us under false pretenses.

  #2 It is useless.

  #3 It is destroying the lives of the poor.

  #4 It is coercive.

  #5 It is technically unreliable.

  #6 It is insecure.

  #7 It puts sensitive data into unreliable hands.

  #8 It is creating the infrastructure for 24×7 surveillance.

  #9 It is allowing privileged insiders to profit from personal data.

  #10 It frees the government from accountability.
Read more about the above points: https://sabrangindia.in/article/say-no-aadhar-%E2%80%93-sign...

Register your protest against aadhaar here: https://www.speakforme.in/mp/?lang=en

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