‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#51

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #43

captn3m0 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a good argument if it were true. >It now turns out that almost all the Aadhaar numbers issued till date – 99.97 per cent – have been issued to people who already had at least two existing identification documents. Even the poorest in India have had ration cards. [0]: https://thewire.in/law/most-aadhar-cards-issued-to-those-who...

Yes but that is vastly different from the benefits Aadhaar provides. With a ration or voter ID card, it was impossible to qualitatively figure out if the person was truly below poverty line or not. It was due to Aadhaar that 1 crore+ LPG users gave up their subsidy. This was not due to a sudden change of heart for the fellow poor Indian citizen. It was instead the realisation that Aadhaar was linked to all bank accou…

On benefits because of LPG subsidy: the benefits are vastly inflated in the government press figures. The real numbers are around 200-300cr if you remove the existing initiatives and inactive connections[0]. If you factor in the cost, this is not worth it.

>the real difference is felt by that poor man who is finally getting what was due to him.

The poor man was screwed by the middleman earlier (aadhaar does not solve quantity fraud - your fingerprint matching does not guarantee that the shopkeeper gives you exactly 5kg of your quota of ration) and continues to be screwed by the middleman. At the same time, the DBT scheme has seen intense opposition from people on the ground.

>According to a press note issued by the campaign, Rai did not deny the results of the survey that said 97% of people are unhappy with the new system.

Rai here is Jharkhand’s food minister Saryu Rai

Daily Wage laborers have been most impacted by DBT[1] in their ability to get benefits timely because of exclusion issues with aadhaar, but the government keeps marking these figures off as "savings".

[0]: https://medium.com/karana/lpg-savings-due-to-aadhaar-is-only...

[1]: https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#52

Post by Alterlife » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side:

India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes:

1. Corruption 2. Inequality

In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government 'servants' are sociopaths. It's a generally accepted fact (with no citation needed) that a non-insignificant portion of government spending on social programs and infrastructure is going un-tracked into private pockets.

Secondly, inequality. A lot of people get away with things in politics. Robert Vadra gets through security checks though he's not a diplomat, Modiji (allegedly) gets degrees without going to college and Jayalalitha from my own state had people falling not only at her feet but touching the tires of her car.

Aadhaar is the 'leveler' that shines light on the financial activities of all these people.

1. Aadhaar is linked to biometrics = aadhaar is linked to a real person

2. You can't live / work in India without Aadhaar = Government employees and people with influence are not exempt.

3. You can't handle money or avail social benefits from the government in India without linking Aadhaar to it = Illegal money can be tracked.

This could solve a lot of problems.

Of-course there are problems with this apart from the well publicized privacy issues. You can apparently purchase fake Aadhaar cards for a few hundred rupees. It's been reported that more than one person has bought an Aadhaar card for a pet and if it's that simple to beat the system then all the good intentions fall flat.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#53

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #48

captn3m0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider…

The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.

It is guaranteed to get worse if the Supreme Court doesn't step in. For eg - Aadhaar enabled payments are on their way, and there is a push from the government to get Aadhaar authenticated ATMs out (fingerprint based). Think of what happens when your Aadhaar is disabled? We've already had people die on hospital entrances because they couldn't find the patient's Aadhaar[0], now we're moving closer to a guaranteed civil death.

The state of Telangana, for eg is turning into a over-policed state with:

- The state police maintaining a copy of the Aadhaar Data[1]

- And using it to geo-tag each resident[2]

- And track petty crimes using aadhaar[3]

Our only hope at this point is that the Supreme Court gives a favorable verdict.

[0]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital...

[1]: http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html

[2]: https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624

[3]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-l...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#54

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #49

captn3m0 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a recycled SIM which I legally own, which is linked to the prior owner's Aadhaar. It will remain linked even if I link my SIM with my Aadhaar. (The Aadhaar->SIM mapping which the government uses is maintained by UIDAI and is not given out, the SIM->Aadhaar mapping which is mandated by DoT is maintained by KYC-regulations of my telecom provider at the telco level)

There are KYC regulations for telcos? Found the Orwellian part.

Yes, these have existed for quite some time. However, you could get one with varying different ID proofs earlier - Driving License, Ration Card, PAN (Tax) Card, Voter ID etc.

Now, we're all being forced to link _everything_ to a single 12-digit Aadhaar.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#55

Post by bigphishy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

Given the title and article is sensationalized, does anyone else see that the greater reliance organizations and govnts put on mass-production of homogeneous survellience technology, the easier it will be to abuse, and the harder it will be to be detected. A double-edge sword it is.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#56

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #50

Zak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought…

By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the co…

I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN.

The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening.

I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switching legal consent to a mere 6 digit OTP is a terrible idea. Even more so because SMS is unencrypted and terrible way of sending secrets. There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere.

I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#57

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #8

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Am…

If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it.

My understanding was that this was the previous system. Government run warehouses with quotas, and shops that handed it out. You had to present a ration cards, as there has to be some system to stop you collecting 10 times a day & running a shop. (This would otherwise be more profitable than many people's jobs.)

And it didn't work. I forget, but maybe 80% of the wheat went missing? (Officially "eaten by rats" but really sold by officials on the side.) And this food subsidy was quite a large part of the national budget. So that's the scale of the problem which this hoped to solve. If every citizen has a number and a bank account, and you just wire them the money, then you won't lose 80%.

The American debate about ID laws is just a much smaller issue. Surely some people cheat, but the current system basically works.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#58

Post by ashwinm » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'.

Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#59

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

Alterlife wrote: post #52

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#60

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #51

shripadk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that is vastly different from the benefits Aadhaar provides. With a ration or voter ID card, it was impossible to qualitatively figure out if the person was truly below poverty line or not. It was due to Aadhaar that 1 crore+ LPG users gave up their subsidy. This was not due to a sudden change of heart for the fellow poor Indian citizen. It was instead the realisation that Aadhaar was linked to all bank accou…

On benefits because of LPG subsidy: the benefits are vastly inflated in the government press figures. The real numbers are around 200-300cr if you remove the existing initiatives and inactive connections[0]. If you factor in the cost, this is not worth it. >the real difference is felt by that poor man who is finally getting what was due to him. The poor man was screwed by the middleman earlier (aadhaar does not solve…

This implementation of DBT sounds crazy.

If the market price of wheat is Rs. 30, and the old system was that the ration shop used to sell it at Re. 1 + the ration coupon, then the value of the coupon was Rs. 29.

If the new system was that you put Rs. 29 into everyone's bank account, then well maybe the ATM is a longer walk than the shop etc. But if the new system is to give people only Re. 1 then no wonder there's a riot!

Am I reading your [1] correctly? The problem is a 30-fold reduction in subsidy, not a new delivery infrastructure?