‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#41

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #27

zo1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then why don't they go and apply to be documented? I'm sure their foreign birth certificate is enough to prove their existence. Oh, that's right, it's illegal and would get declined. Hence the correct term: "illegal immigrants". The topic is complicated and touchy enough without it being muddled with incorrect terminology.

Exactly the reason why India wants documentation via Aadhaar. We have millions of undocumented/illegal immigrants too. From neighbouring Bangladesh (nothing against Bangladeshi's... always welcome through the legal route). They have been enjoying the benefits accorded to them from Indian taxpayer money. Why should Indian exchequer pay for welfare of these illegal immigrants? Before Aadhaar, it was really easy to forg…

this makes me cringe because Aadhaar does not certify citizenship. Someone who crosses over the border today into India can get a aadhaar without any documents by:

1. using the introducer system (The enrollment center operator would gladly do this for you)

2. signing a checkbox that says they've lived in India for 180 days.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#42

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #37

Zak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

> Possibly a security measure?

What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons.

> You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number.

Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay and provided no information other than a mailing address (not mine).

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#43

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #36

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

This would be a good argument if it were true. >It now turns out that almost all the Aadhaar numbers issued till date – 99.97 per cent – have been issued to people who already had at least two existing identification documents. Even the poorest in India have had ration cards. [0]: https://thewire.in/law/most-aadhar-cards-issued-to-those-who...

Yes but that is vastly different from the benefits Aadhaar provides. With a ration or voter ID card, it was impossible to qualitatively figure out if the person was truly below poverty line or not. It was due to Aadhaar that 1 crore+ LPG users gave up their subsidy. This was not due to a sudden change of heart for the fellow poor Indian citizen. It was instead the realisation that Aadhaar was linked to all bank accounts and it would become evident to the government how many of those are really poor. That's precisely the reason so many voluntarily gave up subsidy that they were illegally claiming.

A ration card was being issued to every Tom, Dick and Harry before Aadhaar. The purpose of a ration card was only for those below poverty line and during war times. Plenty misused it for commercial purposes. It's so much better to procure subsidized rice at 2 rupees per kg and sell it in the open market for 50 rupees per kg. Government had no way to track this corruption.

You might look at it as just a replacement for voter ID and ration card, but the real difference is felt by that poor man who is finally getting what was due to him.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#44

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #38

shripadk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question. I guess you are attacking this issue keeping privacy in mind. However, from the Government's point of view, the need for linking mobile phones is to have a secured way of authenticating your Aadha…

While your argument is sound (2-way linking with Aadhaar saves the government from litigation), it is not the argument that the GoI has made for SIM linking. The AG has argued in court that mobile linking is to prevent terrorists from getting Aadhaar. This is on top of the weird order that DoT issued: https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supre... (tl;dr: DoT quotes a Supreme Court ruling which quest…

You can also view it in the context that the previous AG wasn't working in government interest. In fact, there was a hue and cry about removal of the previous AG by Dr. Subramanian Swamy in the 2G scam case: https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/subrama...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#45

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #20

thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #14

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distribute…

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

>The article mentions fraud is a big issue.

When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost.

In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider if the amount you are spending to tackle fraud in the system - is it worth it?

Also, Aadhaar is not a fraud-proof system. The most common type of subsidy-fraud (for food benefits) is quantity fraud where the shopkeeper would sign away 5kg, but only give you 4kg (and sell the other 1kg at a higher rate on the market). There is nothing in the aadhaar system that prevents it (and other kinds of fraud)

Second: Exclusions. Jharkhand, with the highest rate of authentication failures has had multiple deaths. Due to how the system works now (you receive benefits in your bank account instead of directly getting subsidized rations), it requires double the effort (which converts to one-fewer working/earning day because of the extra bank trip).

https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-... is a harrowing read, if someone's interested.

>* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest.

We've gone beyond this. Nursery schools in india for toddlers now demand aadhaar numbers of both parents and the kid.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#46

Post by cornholio » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:55 PM UTC

I understand the need for identification - ID documents long predate these systems and include basic biometric data: photograph, eye and hair color, and sometimes even a finger imprint. In the digital era, ID cards can be made unforgeable and the biometric data can be encrypted and made available only to pre-authorized entities (I.e airport biometric gates)

What I don't understand is why they aim to replace the ID card, a smart, cheap hardware token that can be interfaced with very simple hardware, with a monstruos system where the fingerprint itself is the authentication device.

Now you need complex, finicky machines to read fingerprints and irises/faces whenever you want to do authentication and also require internet connectivity all the time; it's no longer possible to do the low tech, offline validation "ID is present, appears not forged on visual inspection and photograph matches holder". This was usually suficient in 95% of the usecases. You also lose on end to end security: if fingerprint data is duplicated, a rogue acces point can fake authentication, despite the fact that neither the govt nor the person wants that. And once the fingerprint is compromised, it stays that way forever, maybe even putting the original owner on various blacklists.

So instead of going for the low hanging fruit and build a solid electronic ID system where optional biometrics can add some value and also be protected, they overextended to a snake oil system that is actually worse in every way. A cautionary tale for government security purchases and probably the very corruption it purports to address.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#47

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #37

Zak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

I have a recycled SIM which I legally own, which is linked to the prior owner's Aadhaar.

It will remain linked even if I link my SIM with my Aadhaar. (The Aadhaar->SIM mapping which the government uses is maintained by UIDAI and is not given out, the SIM->Aadhaar mapping which is mandated by DoT is maintained by KYC-regulations of my telecom provider at the telco level)

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#48

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #45

Zak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider…

The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#49

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #47

shripadk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

I have a recycled SIM which I legally own, which is linked to the prior owner's Aadhaar. It will remain linked even if I link my SIM with my Aadhaar. (The Aadhaar->SIM mapping which the government uses is maintained by UIDAI and is not given out, the SIM->Aadhaar mapping which is mandated by DoT is maintained by KYC-regulations of my telecom provider at the telco level)

There are KYC regulations for telcos? Found the Orwellian part.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#50

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #42

shripadk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

> Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought…

By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you:

1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit.

2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the cost of acquiring the digital signature and the fact that you need to keep renewing it every few years.

3. Just authenticate using your Aadhaar number. An OTP will be sent to your mobile number and you just need to enter the same on screen. Once verified, you have digitally signed and submitted your tax return.

I find option 3 really appealing. This is just one practical example of where one can use Aadhaar and OTP for authentication.