‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#61

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #41

shripadk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the reason why India wants documentation via Aadhaar. We have millions of undocumented/illegal immigrants too. From neighbouring Bangladesh (nothing against Bangladeshi's... always welcome through the legal route). They have been enjoying the benefits accorded to them from Indian taxpayer money. Why should Indian exchequer pay for welfare of these illegal immigrants? Before Aadhaar, it was really easy to forg…

this makes me cringe because Aadhaar does not certify citizenship. Someone who crosses over the border today into India can get a aadhaar without any documents by: 1. using the introducer system (The enrollment center operator would gladly do this for you) 2. signing a checkbox that says they've lived in India for 180 days.

You can do anything illegally but you also have to be ready for the consequences. Obtaining a PAN using forged documents has just a 10000 rupee penalty but obtaining Aadhaar card illegally will put you in prison for 3 years. Those who are obtaining Aadhaar illegally are setting themselves up for even greater trouble as their biometrics is forever stored with the GoI. Illegal immigrants will have to think twice before going down that route as once discovered will completely block their ability to legally enter India ever again (apart from a lengthy jail term and subsequent deportation).

1. http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/illegal-bangla...

2. http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/jammu-kashmir/communit...

3. https://m.indiatimes.com/news/india/here-is-why-you-should-n...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#62

Post by saagarjha » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

Alterlife wrote: post #52

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

I'm not sure I quite understand how this is going to fight corruption. How are you going to track money that's being moved illegally? Presumably, nobody is going to be doing this under their Aadhaar card; it's all going to be in cash. Plus, how would you even access Aadhaar card information to audit this? Are you going to call up the government and ask for them to check Modi's card to make sure he hasn't been stealing money?

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#63

Post by CryptoPunk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

>>A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens.

I don't think a state being strong contradicts libertarian principles. It's the state being expansive that is anti-liberty.

A strong state that limits itself to core functions (e.g. prosecuting those who resort to aggressive violence, in order to replace the law of the jungle with the law of the market) can potentially result in the most 'libertarian' possible society.

>>In a weak state like India, the local entities are thoroughly corrupt. A blue eyed/blond 6.5 foot viking can get a birth certificate in an indian province where most citizens are under 5.5 foot and caramel colored for less than a hundred dollars.

I don't think the identification system or biometric data linked to it is the main problem. The question is why it's made mandatory to use for nongovernmental services if the purpose is just to prevent people from defrauding the government?

Clearly it goes far beyond corruption of government programs.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#64

Post by firasd » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

ashwinm wrote: post #58

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.

Yes, I explained the similarities. Aadhaar is a core part of the 'India Stack', which is closely connected to the 'cashless' propaganda during the demonetization disaster.

Aadhaar was already flawed as a concept when it was introduced but over the last year there have been sudden mandates to link it to everything. Which makes it far more dangerous. We need to scale it back.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#65

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #60

captn3m0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On benefits because of LPG subsidy: the benefits are vastly inflated in the government press figures. The real numbers are around 200-300cr if you remove the existing initiatives and inactive connections[0]. If you factor in the cost, this is not worth it. >the real difference is felt by that poor man who is finally getting what was due to him. The poor man was screwed by the middleman earlier (aadhaar does not solve…

This implementation of DBT sounds crazy. If the market price of wheat is Rs. 30, and the old system was that the ration shop used to sell it at Re. 1 + the ration coupon, then the value of the coupon was Rs. 29. If the new system was that you put Rs. 29 into everyone's bank account, then well maybe the ATM is a longer walk than the shop etc. But if the new system is to give people only Re. 1 then no wonder there's a…

Going by your example, the government deposits Rs. 29 into the account. The beneficiary has to pay Rs. 1 and withdraw the rest from bank.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#66

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #42

shripadk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect…

> Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought…

prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay

This is highly unusual now. For instance most countries in Europe will now need to see your passport to enable a SIM card. So India isn't an outlier. The stated reason, I believe, is terrorism. Whether this is Orwellian I leave for you to decide.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#67

Post by captn3m0 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #60

captn3m0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On benefits because of LPG subsidy: the benefits are vastly inflated in the government press figures. The real numbers are around 200-300cr if you remove the existing initiatives and inactive connections[0]. If you factor in the cost, this is not worth it. >the real difference is felt by that poor man who is finally getting what was due to him. The poor man was screwed by the middleman earlier (aadhaar does not solve…

This implementation of DBT sounds crazy. If the market price of wheat is Rs. 30, and the old system was that the ration shop used to sell it at Re. 1 + the ration coupon, then the value of the coupon was Rs. 29. If the new system was that you put Rs. 29 into everyone's bank account, then well maybe the ATM is a longer walk than the shop etc. But if the new system is to give people only Re. 1 then no wonder there's a…

You're reading it wrong. You get 29 INR in your bank account, and add another 1 INR to pay 30 to the subsidy to the shop.

But while earlier it was just a walk to the shop and getting your ration card stamped, now you must:

1. Go to your bank (which may not even have a branch in your village)

2. Hope that the network is up

3. Confirm that the money has reached your account. If not, go home and retry (1) on another day

4. Withdraw the money and then go buy your ration at the subsidy shop

Edit: This the relevant quote from the article:

>Earlier, people would take their ration cards [...] and be able to purchase rice at Re 1/kg, with each member of a priority household allotted five kg. Now, [...] – money is first transferred into each household’s Aadhaar-linked bank account. They have to then withdraw this as cash, take it to the local ration dealer and buy rice at Rs 32/kg – of which Re 1/kg comes from the ration card holder [and the rest comes from the subsidy that you withdraw as cash].

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#68

Post by ashwinm » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #9

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon be mandatory for booking flights. Plus much of the database has leaked. You can find thousands of Aadhar cards online just by googling. As far as preventing 'leakage'--the best approach would be to not subsidize products but to move to direct benefits transfer…

What leak exactly? What do anyone achieve by getting your number? Does this outweigh it benefits?

Now you want India to stop subsiding poor? Do you even know the level difference between US and India. And history of political/economic systems?

And who should be making solutions, Internet warriors like you ? Comparing US, then bend over and gives his DNA to get a tourist visa. Hay, I gave it voluntary !

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#69

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #9

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon be mandatory for booking flights. Plus much of the database has leaked. You can find thousands of Aadhar cards online just by googling. As far as preventing 'leakage'--the best approach would be to not subsidize products but to move to direct benefits transfer…

Plus much of the database has leaked.

Honest question: how much does this matter?

For instance, I believe in Denmark your ID number is simply not a secret at all, no more than your name. While in the US, your SSN & address basically seems to let any crook empty your bank account.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#70

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #67

iguy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This implementation of DBT sounds crazy. If the market price of wheat is Rs. 30, and the old system was that the ration shop used to sell it at Re. 1 + the ration coupon, then the value of the coupon was Rs. 29. If the new system was that you put Rs. 29 into everyone's bank account, then well maybe the ATM is a longer walk than the shop etc. But if the new system is to give people only Re. 1 then no wonder there's a…

You're reading it wrong. You get 29 INR in your bank account, and add another 1 INR to pay 30 to the subsidy to the shop. But while earlier it was just a walk to the shop and getting your ration card stamped, now you must: 1. Go to your bank (which may not even have a branch in your village) 2. Hope that the network is up 3. Confirm that the money has reached your account. If not, go home and retry (1) on another day…

OK, thanks!

Sounds like a massive business opportunity for banking. Your village may not have an ATM but I bet it has cellphone signal. Wasn't every Kenyan SMS-ing money around a decade ago?