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Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

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Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#151

Post by skissane »

pavelrub wrote: post #34
anovikov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is little in the way of ethnicity. Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnicity, Jews in general, aren't. They even spoke different languages before Hebrew became a thing in early XX century, and many of them still do.

What a bizarre comment. Saying "Jews, in general, aren't an ethnicity" is almost an oxymoron - for it is precisely the identity shared between this group of people, that justifies the existence of words such as "Jews". There is an evident sense of shared identity between different populations of Jews, based on common history, culture, customs and traditions - this is the very definition of ethnicity, and this why we…

There are multiple ethnic groups that follow the Jewish religion – Askhenazim are ethnically quite different from Mizrahim for example – both culturally and genetically. Now, there is some cultural and genetic commonality between the two groups, but is it sufficient to say they are the same ethnicity? Well, Italians and Spaniards traditionally share a religion (Roman Catholicism), speak related languages, and share some biological ancestry – does that make them one ethnic group? From a linguistic perspective, Italians and Spaniards arguably have more in common than Askhenazim and Mizrahim, since Italian and Spanish belong to the same branch (Romance/Italic) of the same language family (Indo-European), whereas Yiddish and Judeo-Arabic belong to completely different language families–Indo-European vs. Afroasiatic–despite sharing influence from Hebrew and Aramaic.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#152

Post by davemel37 »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #148
davemel37 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was taking you seriously until you wrote this, "Judaism's pairing of extreme insularity with great economic success" and this, "Oppression and dispersion takes on a different meaning for those of means" I really think there is an undertone to this perspective that is colored by a narrative that is false at best and possibly something much worse. I dont think there is any factual basis to claim Jews had great econom…

Your post display an impressively poor knowledge of even the most basic facts of history, of which you then speak on authoritatively. And then you try to attack my character based on your lack of knowledge. Dear sir, I can only applaud your narcissism. It is impressive! https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/usury-and-moneylend...

How does this article support your claim that Jews survived because they "had means"??? Showing a disproportionate amount of jews in finance in the last 500 years in a few limited instances...in no way shape or form speaks to the means of the vast majority of Jews nor does it to speak to 3000 years of persecution.

You wrote a previous comment about jews distinctive physical features and now you speak of their means and share an article about rotschild and than view a Jew who calls you out on your false narrative a narcissist?!

Ascribing a few peoples wealth on a group of millions is the very definition of anti-semitism... I refrained from calling you out sooner to try to give you the benefit of the doubt...but the fact is the wealth on one person or a few people lending money hardly reflects on the entire Jewish people...it is a dangerous stereotype not based on actual facts...just a stereotype based on a fraction of a fraction of the population...

Your belief that jews arent poor or oppressed minorities without means throughtout history is patently false! Even if you can point to a few exceptions to the rules.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#153

Post by emmelaich »

wslh wrote: post #9
golemiprague wrote: post #4

There are much earlier archaeological artefacts including stone writing from much earlier than 457 B.C. This is the time after the destruction of the first temple by the Babylonians who dispersed the Jews around the area. Since then there were Jewish communities all over the middle east including in Egypt. I don't understand why the writer of the article is so baffled about this. Just as an example, the Merneptah Ste…

Not (known if) specifically Jewish but there is a semitic slave figure in the Hecht Museum [1] from 18-19 Century BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Figurine_from_Egypt_of_se... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Figurine_from_Egypt_of_se...

8th century BCE not 18th.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#154

Post by Cyph0n »

220V_USKettle wrote: post #65
Cyph0n wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a similar quandary with Arabs, minus the shared religion of course. I'm Tunisian and I consider myself Arab, but many other Tunisians consider themselves (ethnically) Maghrebi and/or Amazigh. Tunisia and the remaining Maghrebi countries are part of the Arab League, though. I'm sure it's even more complicated for Tunisian Jews :P

Do you have a good Tunisian tuna sandwich recipe? I recently had the opportunity to try one a few months ago. So good.

Tuna is a staple of Tunisian street food, so you'll find a variety of different types of tuna sandwiches.

If you are looking for a standard Tunisian sandwich, I asked my wife and she said this one looks good: https://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Tunisian-Tuna-Sandwic....

Fricassee is another tasty Tunisian tuna-based sandwich, but it requires that you also prepare the bread: http://www.afooda.com/tunisian-fricassee-fricasse-roll/

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#155

Post by TangoTrotFox »

davemel37 wrote: post #152
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post display an impressively poor knowledge of even the most basic facts of history, of which you then speak on authoritatively. And then you try to attack my character based on your lack of knowledge. Dear sir, I can only applaud your narcissism. It is impressive! https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/usury-and-moneylend...

How does this article support your claim that Jews survived because they "had means"??? Showing a disproportionate amount of jews in finance in the last 500 years in a few limited instances...in no way shape or form speaks to the means of the vast majority of Jews nor does it to speak to 3000 years of persecution. You wrote a previous comment about jews distinctive physical features and now you speak of their means a…

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/banking-and-bankers

Or you can search for literally any source. The extreme success of the Jewish communities throughout time is extremely well documented. This success, paired with insularity, was often one of the big motivations for their oppression throughout history. Expulsions would generally involve direct or indirect confiscation of material possessions. Between the 13th and 16th century Jews were expelled some 15+ times, in some cases multiple times from the same places (such as France) where they would be expelled, invited as their absence proved problematic, expelled again, and so on.

The reason Jews have distinctive features is because today about 75% of Jews are Ashkenazi - a very distinctive group with a variety of distinct features, both physical and nonphysical. For instance Ahskenazi individuals show an average IQ average nearly a standard deviation above the mean. The reason for the genetic relationship is that historically Judaism was far more insular than it is even today. For instance interfaith marriages is an extremely new phenomena. Pair a religion that makes it extremely difficult to join (and was only more difficult in the past) with extreme restrictions on things like marriage, and you end up with strong genetic similarity. It's not dissimilar, in effect, from geographic isolation which yielded most distinctive traits of various groups today.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#156

Post by pavelrub »

skissane wrote: post #151
pavelrub wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bizarre comment. Saying "Jews, in general, aren't an ethnicity" is almost an oxymoron - for it is precisely the identity shared between this group of people, that justifies the existence of words such as "Jews". There is an evident sense of shared identity between different populations of Jews, based on common history, culture, customs and traditions - this is the very definition of ethnicity, and this why we…

There are multiple ethnic groups that follow the Jewish religion – Askhenazim are ethnically quite different from Mizrahim for example – both culturally and genetically. Now, there is some cultural and genetic commonality between the two groups, but is it sufficient to say they are the same ethnicity? Well, Italians and Spaniards traditionally share a religion (Roman Catholicism), speak related languages, and share s…

> Now, there is some cultural and genetic commonality between the two groups, but is it sufficient to say they are the same ethnicity?

Of course, because both groups view themselves as belonging to the same group of people, with shared customs, history, religion and tradition, that dates back to the Kingdom of Israel. What you don't seem to understand is that ethnicity is a social concept - the criteria isn't "how much two people have in common", but whether a shared identity exists between them. You should ask yourself what makes you refer to both Ashkenazim and Mizrahim as "Jews", and what makes them refer to themselves as such, even among people who don't believe in Judaism.

> Well, Italians and Spaniards traditionally share a religion (Roman Catholicism), speak related languages, and share some biological ancestry – does that make them one ethnic group?

If they share the same ethnic identity then of course.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#157

Post by the_grue »

nickik wrote: post #147
commandlinefan wrote: post #37

I've always been idly curious as to what happened in Israel (as in the geographic area) between, say, 35 A.D. and 1948. It seems, though, as if everybody who might have some insight there also has an agenda that makes any concrete information they might have to share indecipherable.

First I would suggest this funny and historical song about the lands you speak of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

As soon as we hand history over to a good-willing person, even if they are a great artist, the matters quickly get foggy. This particular attempt at simplification of history has at least one significant flaw. It picked a plot line of different peoples fighting for land because they consider it holy and sticks to it, even though it's historically incorrect. Specifically, it is only fully correct for Jews, since, according to the Bible, the land of Israel was promised to Abraham and his descendants by God. Everyone else were and are primarily fighting for other reasons. For Muslims, Israel has never been a particularly important place - only the Jerusalem Mosque is somewhat important (not as important as Mecca and Medina), even though it is only thought to be mentioned in Quran as "the farthest Mosque". Now while Christians did call it a Holy land, I believe the real reason they were attracted to it was because of its association with Jesus.

So yeah, while Nina Parley is a terrific artist, be warned that this particular work of art distorts the truth, whether on purpose or not. The real story is that the Jews have a much stronger religious claim to the land than anyone else. Even more importantly, Israel is their only homeland, as opposed to everyone else who fought (and, arguably, still fights) for it.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#158

Post by skissane »

pavelrub wrote: post #156
skissane wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple ethnic groups that follow the Jewish religion – Askhenazim are ethnically quite different from Mizrahim for example – both culturally and genetically. Now, there is some cultural and genetic commonality between the two groups, but is it sufficient to say they are the same ethnicity? Well, Italians and Spaniards traditionally share a religion (Roman Catholicism), speak related languages, and share s…

> Now, there is some cultural and genetic commonality between the two groups, but is it sufficient to say they are the same ethnicity? Of course, because both groups view themselves as belonging to the same group of people, with shared customs, history, religion and tradition, that dates back to the Kingdom of Israel. What you don't seem to understand is that ethnicity is a social concept - the criteria isn't "how mu…

Ethnicity seems to me to be a sort of taxonomic hierarchy. Some ethnic groups are more closely related to each other than others. Ethnicities can be grouped together into families of closely related ethnicities, which in turn can often be further grouped into broader families of less closely related ethnicities; ethnicities can often be further subdivided into sub-ethnicities. Are Jews a single ethnicity, or a family of related ethnicities? You could ask the same question about the Han Chinese, or about Italians; it is somewhat arbitrary, and the question is influenced by politics – Italian nationalism emphasises the notion of a single Italian ethnicity, separatist movements such as Sicilian nationalism or the Lega Nord emphasise regional ethnic identities instead.

You want to focus on subjective questions of identity, but it isn't clear to me that all Jews have the same subjective sense of identity. Does a secular Zionist in Tel Aviv have the same subjective sense of identity as a Satmar anti-Zionist in Kiryas Joel? Certainly their "subjective sense of identity" has completely different ideological foundations. They likely wouldn't agree on who is a Jew either, since their different ideological foundations would lead them to different positions on issues such as conversion standards and patrilineal descent.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#159

Post by avshyz »

bjourne wrote: post #113
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.

I don't understand this infatuation with ones genetic material. Given that I am blond and blue-eyed and live in Scandinavia, I'm probably just as much Vikingish as you are Jewish. Should I be proud of being a Viking? If your objection is that the Vikings were horrible people that just pillaged stuff. Then I agree, but the ancient Israelites weren't that kind to women and slaves either. If your objection is that the c…

Hi, I'd like to chime in. I'm Avishay, I'm a secular Jew from Israel. I'd like to say it's not an infatuation with our genetic material. Far from it. (enter an obligatory nose joke here)

It's being impressed our ancestors have been holding on to a religious and cultural identity for two thousand years. Years in which they were were a minority in different countries, spoke in foreign tongues, were forced to denounce their Judaism, and sometimes were haunted without even that choice.

It's that as a modern Hebrew speaker, I can pretty easily read a piece of text as the Bible - written thousands of years ago. And that even though my ancestors were from Syria, Iraq, and Morroco - they shared the same ethos as the jews from Hungary, Germany, and Russia.

Although, being a Viking is also very cool.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#160

Post by avshyz »

vokep wrote: post #121
dullgiulio wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the person who says that is part of the oppressed minority, not the other way around.

Why is that relevant to if the statement is racist? Yes there is a difference between kicking someone when they're down and kicking while down, but it is still kicking.

Disraeli said that in the quarrel as a response to O'Connell who've referred to Disraeli's Jewish ancestry in disparaging terms.

Put things in context, mate.

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