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Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

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Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#141

Post by davemel37 »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #114
bradfordarner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the Anthropic principle can be applied here. There is a broader data set than that which is relevant for that principle, based on my understanding. "Against all odds" would seem to be the key words here. There are countless other ethnic and religious groups that were integrated into the larger Muslim culture when Islam was first spreading. The same is the case for Christian Europe. In fact, the Romani pe…

Who are you comparing Jews to? This is the point. I don't think there's any reasonable comparison. Judaism's pairing of extreme insularity with great economic success in most 'host nations' leaves them without any other group to compare against. Powerless minority groups are certainly not a reasonable comparison. Oppression and dispersion takes on a different meaning for those of means, even more so when the shared g…

I was taking you seriously until you wrote this, "Judaism's pairing of extreme insularity with great economic success" and this, "Oppression and dispersion takes on a different meaning for those of means"

I really think there is an undertone to this perspective that is colored by a narrative that is false at best and possibly something much worse.

I dont think there is any factual basis to claim Jews had great economic success or were of means outside of false narratives perpetuated by their enemies. Even if you can point to specific eras or individuals that had success, you certainly couldnt demonstrate it existed propritionately more so than others, or that it existed in all the periods where they were persecuted and oppressed...

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#142

Post by bzbarsky »

ocschwar wrote: post #47
Cyph0n wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a similar quandary with Arabs, minus the shared religion of course. I'm Tunisian and I consider myself Arab, but many other Tunisians consider themselves (ethnically) Maghrebi and/or Amazigh. Tunisia and the remaining Maghrebi countries are part of the Arab League, though. I'm sure it's even more complicated for Tunisian Jews :P

Complicated in a good way, because so many Tunisians committed to building a country for all Tunisians. For Lybian Jews, it's not complicated at all.

Even, in Tunisia, to quote Wikipedia: "In 1948 the Jewish population was an estimated 105,000, but by 2013 only about 900 remained"...

That said, the 2014 Tunisian constitution and its protections for freedom of religion was a huge step forward, and gives me a good bit of hope for the future.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#143

Post by jacquesm »

throwawayjewis2 wrote: post #78
davemel37 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really just can't understand this frame of thinking that says Judaism is good because it's been going on for long. Im not a rabbi or in kiruv or anything, so take this with a grain of salt...but I would point to Jordan Petersons position about the longevity and survival of the bible stories and his response to atheists around it all sounding made up. There is a reason these stories survived through the ages. There…

> There is wisdom and much to learn from the ideas in the Torah even if you dont buy into their accuracy. It's just too shallow to dismiss it as superstitious ancestors who werent as smart as us. >From a purely pragmatic standpoint, the very fact that we are finite beings in a world that will survive our existence means that our life will face tragedy...and the best way to cope with a tragic existence is to find mean…

Thank you for all your contributions in this thread, I really like your attitude towards heritage, religion and the complexities of identity.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#144

Post by davidf18 »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #51
throwawayjewish wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impres…

Its a personal thing, I am not in a position to persuade anybody. I think that our present is explained by the context of the past, and that you can't understand the present without looking at the past. Now the past is a complex thing that can't be reduced to some simple formula, I still believe that you can still learn out of it, because human nature didn't change to much throughout the ages. Our reality may be quit…

Unique among religions and civilizations, Judaism mandated universal education though 6th grade for all males for reading, writing, "bible" and math 2000 years ago as the Romans were destroying The Jewish (animal sacrificial) Temple.

Some of those students went to yeshivas (religious schools) afterwards studying Talmud [1] (a written rendition of The Oral Law by tradition given to Moses by God along with the five books of Moses). A very high priority "law" (mitzvah) in Judaism is that Jewish males are supposed to spend at least a little time each day learning Talmud.

The Talmud is focused not so much on content but on process, on learning Jewish tradition and law though arguments among rabbis testing edge conditions (e.g., an object found overlapping both public and private property). In modern day, yeshiva students have taken the LSAT exam and have gone directly to law school without attending undergraduate education.

I believe the unique early emphasis on education, "The Law" (Torah), and lifelong learning among males helped to hold the community together.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#145

Post by vasilipupkin »

jklinger410 wrote: post #138
vasilipupkin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

come on, you are engaging in pointless sophistry. Common ancestry doesn't mean that it involves 100% guaranteed common transfer of genes every time - it just means that common transfer of genes was quite likely to take place at least relatively often. In the case of Ashkenazi Jews, we know it did.

I'm just trying to point out that you don't have to share genes with an ethnic group to belong to it.

this is not about "have to" or "don't have to", but about likelihood. Likelihood is high enough that they do genetic testing on ashkenazi jews.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#146

Post by TangoTrotFox »

kolpa wrote: post #112
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judaism is very different than most religions in that it doesn't try to spread, but is instead quite insular. If you want to convert it's a big deal with study, testing, and culminating with a literal certificate of conversion - that can be revoked. It's also very unique in that Jewish Orthodoxy considers it 'genetic'. If your mother was a Jew, you are a Jew - regardless of whether you consider yourself e.g. an athei…

Orthodoxy is only one small part of Judaism and Jews. > If you want to convert it's a big deal with study, testing, and culminating with a literal certificate of conversion - that can be revoked. https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/50602/can-conver... Only in narrow areas, such as modern State of Israel (which is a blip in Jewish history, and not the world government of Jews), which very special circumstances…

You have things reversed. What you see today is an extremely rapid reformation upon reformation of Judaism. This is the blip in Jewish history. However, what has led up to today is the product of what we would consider orthodox Judaism, which of course was simply called Judaism.

For instance, in the past interfaith marriage was not only frowned upon but something that would likely result in individuals facing exile from the Jewish community. This, for instance, is why most Jews today share so many distinct physical and other characteristics. In searching for some interesting numbers I came upon this article [1] which you might find interesting - it discusses the ongoing "reformation" of Judaism. The reason I put reformation in quotes is because I think it's "reforming" in the way that most religions are today - it's fading. And I think a century it will probably make no more sense to refer to Jews as an ethnic group than it would to refer to Irish Americans as an ethic group today. However, as of today Jews most certainly remain an ethic group by most all facets of the word.

[1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/us/poll-shows-major-shift...

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#147

Post by nickik »

commandlinefan wrote: post #37

I've always been idly curious as to what happened in Israel (as in the geographic area) between, say, 35 A.D. and 1948. It seems, though, as if everybody who might have some insight there also has an agenda that makes any concrete information they might have to share indecipherable.

First I would suggest this funny and historical song about the lands you speak of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#148

Post by TangoTrotFox »

davemel37 wrote: post #141
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you comparing Jews to? This is the point. I don't think there's any reasonable comparison. Judaism's pairing of extreme insularity with great economic success in most 'host nations' leaves them without any other group to compare against. Powerless minority groups are certainly not a reasonable comparison. Oppression and dispersion takes on a different meaning for those of means, even more so when the shared g…

I was taking you seriously until you wrote this, "Judaism's pairing of extreme insularity with great economic success" and this, "Oppression and dispersion takes on a different meaning for those of means" I really think there is an undertone to this perspective that is colored by a narrative that is false at best and possibly something much worse. I dont think there is any factual basis to claim Jews had great econom…

Your post display an impressively poor knowledge of even the most basic facts of history, of which you then speak on authoritatively. And then you try to attack my character based on your lack of knowledge. Dear sir, I can only applaud your narcissism. It is impressive!

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/usury-and-moneylend...

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#149

Post by kurthr »

pavelrub wrote: post #60
kurthr wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting interpretation. I assume you mean as decendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I had never considered Catholics or christianity an ethnic group. Because to me it implied shared genetic features.

You are confusing Judaism - the religion, with the Jewish people - an ethnorelegious group. Many modern Jews are atheists - they certainly don't believe in Judaism, yet nobody would doubt that they are Jewish, nor would they deny this themselves. Similarly - a Jew can become a christian or a muslim yet ethnically still remain a Jew. The same cannot be said about christians or muslims.

I may still be confused, because without the term Jewish people, it would seem that many adherents to the Jewish faith which are not ethnically Jewish would not be considered Jews?

I would argue that there are also many atheist Catholics (e.g. in Italy) who would disagree that they were not also part of an ethnorelegious group.

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