Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#801

Post by richardw » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:59 AM UTC

dba7dba wrote: post #786

abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

Internet was a creation of DARPA. And that D stands for Defense. I believe the silicon research/production that started Silicon Valley was for military needs. Military paid for it. First Computer of US and Britain? It was funded and created during war for military purposes. And what about China and Russia? Will THEY stop AI research just because Google employees demand it?

Neither Ford nor the Right Brothers were military. Xerox PARC wasn't. Tesla isn't.

Innovation doesn't need defense support, innovation will come anyway. We just choose to allocate much of our resources to the military so that's where it gets spent. Later we can claim it as a win for defense. A happy surprise benefit of trying to kill each other.

All you need is people, time and money. Profit.

Many years ago I choose not to work on a local defense project. I found out that the project had ties to Chinese defense. I'm fine with my choice because I find their leadership somewhat oppressive.

Another time I saw Iranians on the campus. Another awesome opportunity for interesting work that some might not want to get involved in.

I know someone who did work for Mugabe. Hey, cool project. It's easy when you justify it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#802

Post by samirillian » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:01 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #651

samirillian wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is some menacing language. What exactly is the right way to kill a person.

In self defense? In defense of others? Those are considered cases where killing someone is legitimate by almost everyone.

America Defends itself and others with Predators. Power loves rubbing your face in these kinds of absurdities.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by cmyr » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:02 AM UTC

didibus wrote: post #792

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

Why would the engineers be more burdened with the ethics of their creation over the investors, founders, managements, lawyers, execs, CEOs and government policy makers who all contributed to, promoted and made happen its fabrication by engineers?

They aren't more burdened, but they are the last line of defence.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by mrlala » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:04 AM UTC

betolink wrote: post #796

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just a reminder: you are writing this over the internet - that one was funded by the pentagon too (darpanet) http://ccr.sigcomm.org/archive/1995/jan95/ccr-9501-clark.pdf Here they say that the design of the internet was very much determined by the military priorities of the project (Telcos had different priorities so they came up with OSI where the link layer is supposed to be reliable, as opposed to DARPANET/IP, whe…

There is a huge difference between creating a network protocol and designing autonomous killer drones.

Really? The killer drones couldn't communicate without said network protocols.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by pteredactyl » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:05 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

To me, that's the question. And people don't realize a lot of who we are and where we are is because our military presence. Atomic bomb anyone?

What gets me now, is how much the US economy and focus is on death and violence. Offensive death and violence. We're bombing people all over the Middle East. And have been for years. Tangentially, I find 'March for our Lives' ironic given the amount of, to me, unjustified, violence and death the US country exports to children and families around the world.

For self-defense only? In an ideal world, yea, invent the meanest things possible. That philosophy still is compatible with a strong military. But then again you have Gulf of Tonkin, etc., so who knows!?

Lately I've been telling myself this whole wargame is a game I'll never be privy to what's actually happening.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#806

Post by fabianhjr » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:05 AM UTC

ghostcluster wrote: post #785

betolink wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is having killing machines with no human in the loop a good idea? because that's the way this is going. We don't need Skynet to have a dystopian future.

Is it ok to not have them and allow an adversary who does develop them to overwhelm your nation's outdated defenses and less efficient tactics, as Germany did with its tank blitzkriegs and diversion around the Maginot line?

The problem emerges when an actor most become a monster to win, sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction. I think that scifi shorts have the duty and power to show us the paths that certain developments entail. For example:

- Slaughterbots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw

- Last Day of War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmTeBSEzU

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#807

Post by 75dvtwin » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

>"...The letter, which is circulating inside Google and has garnered more than 3,100 signatures, reflects a culture clash between Silicon Valley and the federal government..."

If Google still continues to engage in the 'Business of war', would these 3,100 employees walk out?

Would they, then, also refuse to pay taxes to the US Fed Gov (which, obviously spends them, on the business of war) ?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by peteretep » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

deft wrote: post #781

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"One man was responsible for helping save tens of thousands of lives. Another man helped kill millions." In the case of Fritz Haber, it's the same man who saved billions from hunger and killed millions by prolonging World War-I. Excellent article on the same - https://medium.com/the-mission/the-tragedy-of-fritz-haber-th... Sometimes, the decision isn't clear as black & white; especially when you mix nationalism & pa…

That's totally different. He chose to kill the people and did it intentionally out of hate / pride for his country. This thread and the posted link are discussing whether something is immoral or not. He knew it would kill a ton of people and designed it to on purpose. That situation is totally black and white. Mass intentional killing is wrong, pretty much everyone agrees with that.

> Mass intentional killing is wrong, pretty much everyone agrees with that

Nope.

Bomber Command in WWII and the use of nuclear weapons in WWII are both examples where you will find nuanced, intelligent debate on both sides of the argument of whether "mass, intentional killing" being wrong or not. What you describe as "hate / pride for his country" ... but isn't that the reason most soldiers kill? That you even bother to call this out shows that you know the reasons for killing people need to be taken into account.

I'm not making a statement on whether or not mass killing is wrong here, simply pointing out what seems obvious: it's far from black and white.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by pteredactyl » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #754

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

> The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. I think people often have that twisted. A lot of the U.S.'s expansion is cultural, not military. That is to say: people liked what they were doing, and became a fan. Think: music, movies, and to some extent, literature, and now you might add software and consumer electronics to that list. And even when looking at Rome, can you imagine how much h…

Yea, but how much cultural influence comes back to the military? Internet? Darpa. Hollywood? CIA pitches/vets certain scripts. Modern art? A CIA weapon during the cold war.

The list goes on and on.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#810

Post by pteredactyl » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:10 AM UTC

maroonblazer wrote: post #778

microcolonel wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. I think people often have that twisted. A lot of the U.S.'s expansion is cultural, not military. That is to say: people liked what they were doing, and became a fan. Think: music, movies, and to some extent, literature, and now you might add software and consumer electronics to that list. And even when looking at Rome, can you imagine how much h…

Who can project force like the U.S. military? No one. For the most part it's used to enable people to have more say in how they're governed, modulo certain constraints. That's not to say we do it perfectly but we shouldn't underestimate how positively influential that military power is.

Agreed. And it's a position that I don't think many people realize.