Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#751

Post by Natsu » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

white-flame wrote: post #667

Natsu wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't think of a single right that exists inherently. Where does such a right originate? From our own human nature, actually. Think about this for a minute. Would a normal person be willing to believe something because you were forced to? If someone was violently attacked, would they not fight back? By recognizing these aspects of human nature as something fundamentally not controllable by laws, we can instead fo…

> By recognizing these aspects of human nature as something fundamentally not controllable by laws, we can instead force government to work with that human nature instead of contrary to it. If human nature is ultimately "not controllable by law", then that would certainly apply broadly, not just to cherry picked aspects of it. Certainly assault, murder, rape, theft, harassment, abuse, cheating, and the like are facet…

It's better to work with instead of against our natures. There are certainly things that can stand improvement.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#752

Post by sillysaurus3 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US.

Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#753

Post by fricat1ve » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:27 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #721

fricat1ve wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there has been a massive campaign to roll back what was called “Vietnam syndrome” — the idea that you should consider the morality of your actions and contributions to society, not mere legality. Is that what is typically meant by "Vietnam syndrome"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Syndrome Also, isn't it a stretch to say Hollywood movies about WWII propagandize the idea one should only consider the legality…

Didn't say that. WWII was a case where legality and morality overlap more conveniently which is why it is a favored topic. Still debatable in many aspects e.g. Nagasaki, firebombing cities, not bombing the concentration camps, etc., but in comparison to say Vietnam, you see the point. You don't see too many films these days celebrating the nobility of unquestioningly doing one's duty to support the righteous fight in…

Ok, I understand a little better now. I still think this "legality" line of argument is a bit of a red herring and I'm not sure where the poster you responded to got his ideas about how things were "in earlier days" and what "was always the standard."

I think it's probably fair to say that Vietnam was an eye-opener that shook a lot of people's trust in the wisdom of our society's leadership in general. And that a segment of society nevertheless responded like Kissinger by doubling down and shaming the doubters.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#754

Post by microcolonel » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

> The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US.

I think people often have that twisted. A lot of the U.S.'s expansion is cultural, not military. That is to say: people liked what they were doing, and became a fan. Think: music, movies, and to some extent, literature, and now you might add software and consumer electronics to that list.

And even when looking at Rome, can you imagine how much harder those repeated annexations would have been if the Roman culture wasn't respected?

I'd say that being capable at least of defending oneself, independently, from most individual powers and believable coalitions, creates a certain amount of stability.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#755

Post by sumedh » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

HipHopHacker wrote: post #747

sumedh wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially reading all the justifications here for the need to work towards militancy. The internet was started because of military project. If you really care about this issue you should not be using the internet.

I worked and was taxed, and these taxes built the Internet. That I should not use something that was built from my indirect work seems to follow the logic all the rest of this does though.

That is an interesting double standard, you rant about not supporting murderers and then use a tool which was created by the military for better communications during a war(aka murdering people)

Its not about logic its about principles, we already established that you are a hypocrite.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#756

Post by betolink » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

Is having killing machines with no human in the loop a good idea? because that's the way this is going. We don't need Skynet to have a dystopian future.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#757

Post by Abishek_Muthian » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

>"One man was responsible for helping save tens of thousands of lives. Another man helped kill millions."

In the case of Fritz Haber, it's the same man who saved billions from hunger and killed millions by prolonging World War-I. Excellent article on the same - https://medium.com/the-mission/the-tragedy-of-fritz-haber-th...

Sometimes, the decision isn't clear as black & white; especially when you mix nationalism & patriotism into it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#758

Post by HipHopHacker » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #488

gaius wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other extreme is that some folks actually have a conscience Those people are not working in AdTech.

You want to have that conversation with them? Because some of them are right here. In fact some of them just got shot at yesterday. Is it hyperbole, or do you honestly feel that trying to connect users with products they might like is inherently unconscionable?

> some of them just got shot at yesterday

The Google/Youtube/Alphabet people are justifying why they are going to get into the business of shooting people, and making drones that shoot people, and you're trying to stir up sympathy for them by saying they were shot? Just as they decide to become murderers, a woman comes in and shoots a bunch of them. Not too many tears in my eyes.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#759

Post by sterlind » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:45 AM UTC

chapill wrote: post #683

grellas wrote: post #533

Where does one draw a line these days among the personal, the moral, the legal, and the political? The military application in question is legal and is approved by a duly elected government that supports it politically. In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and app…

>if I help develop A.I. that can be used for all sorts of things, one of which happens to be military-related, is the effort "evil" There's a famous quote for this: It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter. ht…

I completely agree with the loaded-gun metaphor, but doctors are a very different kettle of fish.

Doctors are healers. The Hippocratic oath - "do no harm" - is the logical conclusion of the practice of medicine. Medicine heals, which is the opposite of causing harm. Avoiding harm is the only consistent metric of success, which explains the oath's persistence for millennia.

Can you think of a consistent, concrete set of ethics that would draw unanimous support among programmers?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#760

Post by killjoywashere » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

hyperdunc wrote: post #736

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

Whether military AI endsup being closer to a heart valve or a gas chamber, it's going to be built first by some nation. But there is space for ethical contemplation during an arms race.

Absolutely. As consequentialist first move, let me suggest that a first order principle for the US military is "Sweat now or bleed later". Better to work your ass off to develop superior tactics, discipline, and technology now than die later.

No one hates war more than soldiers.