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Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

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Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#111

Post by asdsa5325 »

tomlock wrote: post #34
m52go wrote: post #13

Folks, the number of shooting crimes (including school shootings) in the United States is going down. I know times like this are the worst times to mention this fact, but it's true [0]. The media frenzy makes this look like some kind of out-of-control epidemic, but that's just not the case. This does not mean we should do nothing about them...any shooting is an event that should not happen. But it's important to real…

America is 12th in the world in per-capita gun deaths by country. Should we be satisfied with 12th?

We are 31st when you don't include suicide or accidents FYI.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#112

Post by rocqua »

malvosenior wrote: post #95
rocqua wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think this part of the second amendment is outdated. The check on violent government overreach are the moral compasses of individual soldiers, peaceful protests and a free media. If we get past all of these things, no "well regulated Militia" is going to stop the U.S. Army. The best chance would be state national guards. My point here is that fully automatic fire, tanks, artillery and air support make an…

Just this week I saw footage of police murdering an unarmed man in Baton Rouge. Had that person actually been armed, maybe he could have defended himself. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/03/3...

Adding more guns to a situations where police are using guns unjustly is not going to end well.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#113

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jjoonathan wrote: post #39
just_testing wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those statistics where there are only two distinct values that matter: - Zero shootings - Too many shootings Any number bigger than zero is too much and we should do our best as a society to decrease it to zero.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

> He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#114

Post by tomlock »

asdsa5325 wrote: post #111
tomlock wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is 12th in the world in per-capita gun deaths by country. Should we be satisfied with 12th?

We are 31st when you don't include suicide or accidents FYI.

So still well above average?

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#115

Post by matte_black »

QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #100
Veelox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if so many gun owners really do support sensible gun control laws Would you be willing to outline what you count as sensible gun control laws and what you hope to accomplish with these gun laws?

First off, legalizing CDC research into gun violence seems like a reasonable step

While I’m all for unbiased, scientific research on gun violence, I have little confidence that it won’t just become the liberal’s version of climate change denial.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#116

Post by rocqua »

kelnos wrote: post #106
rocqua wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also come from a near gun-less country, and think a similar system in America would work. However, there are some arguments in favor of guns that are not trivially ignored. - Simply, guns are fun. Marksmanship is a serious sport of discipline and self-control. - Hunting is also great recreation, is sometimes good for population control, and hunting is another reason for preserving and protecting nature. - Self-defe…

> Finally, some of this is about being able to resist a potential unjust government Anyone who truly believes private citizen gun owners in the US could ever band together and overthrow the US government is deluded, at best. The US military would shut them down in record time.

It is indeed, a wrong idea. Nevertheless, it is an idea that needs to be addressed, not swept-aside. The same goes with all the other arguments I mentioned. If we just ignore these and say "There is no possible reason for owning guns" we are essentially arguing in bad faith.

Generally, convincing people isn't helped by immediately dismissing their entire position as trivially wrong and deluded.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#117

Post by fapjacks »

pasabagi wrote: post #77
malvosenior wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely have the advantage of putting a check on government power. The US is a very heterogeneous country (probably much more so than the country you’re referencing). Not all groups have a great relationship with the government and very sensibly feel that giving the government a monopoly on firearms is not in their best interest.

This argument is absurd. Most of the time, Americans can't organize enough to start a union, or even join one. The idea of Americans organizing an insurgency is ridiculous. The idea of Americans winning an insurgency, against the largest army in the world - an army that has more counter-insurgency experience than anybody except perhaps the IDF, is still more ridiculous. Guns will never check anything because the only…

This argument is absurd. Any "reasonable, intelligent person" who's read basically any history book ever written would know that the United States would not descend into civil war with its military intact.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#118

Post by matt_the_bass »

lolsal wrote: post #41
dabeeeenster wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The media frenzy makes this look like some kind of out-of-control epidemic, but that's just not the case." That's exactly the case. Just because numbers are going down doesn't make it any less of an epidemic. "people are approaching the topic emotionally rather than rationally and proposing extreme reactions" Suggesting people don't own assault rifles is not an "extreme reaction".

> That's exactly the case. Just because numbers are going down doesn't make it any less of an epidemic. 'Epidemic' is usually used to refer to the rate of spread of something. This sort of hyperbole is exactly why it's hard to have honest or productive discussions about this topic. > Suggesting people don't own assault rifles is not an "extreme reaction". I would assert that it depends on whether or not you feel alte…

One question that perhaps we should be asking is Should the right to bear arms include assault rifles or only lower power guns similar to what we’re available at the time of its writing? There seems to be general public agreement that the right to bear arms does not include RPGs or stinger missles, etc. Yet those are certainly arms. Why are assault riffles in the same category as shot guns?

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#119

Post by castle-bravo »

beamatronic wrote: post #88
IgorPartola wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some minimal number of school shootings that's acceptable? My position is that we clearly have shown that this country cannot be trusted with personal possession of firearms, so let's all calmly proceed towards no longer having them around.

Is there some minimal number of fatal auto accidents that's acceptable? My position is that we clearly have shown that this country cannot be trusted with personal possession of motor vehicles, so let's all calmly proceed towards no longer having them around.

Now this I can get behind.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#120

Post by rocqua »

pasabagi wrote: post #96
rocqua wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also come from a near gun-less country, and think a similar system in America would work. However, there are some arguments in favor of guns that are not trivially ignored. - Simply, guns are fun. Marksmanship is a serious sport of discipline and self-control. - Hunting is also great recreation, is sometimes good for population control, and hunting is another reason for preserving and protecting nature. - Self-defe…

I'm not American - so I'm not particularly out to convince anybody. I think gun-ownership is really embedded into the deep and often weird tangle of american identity, and it's basically immune to rational argument at this point. On a purely technical level, I think the problem with the arguments you've mentioned are they don't generally stand on an even footing with the arguments against gun-ownership, except perhap…

Yes, the overarching counter argument is that these aren't good enough reasons given the bad results of legally owned guns.

I also missed the argument "gun-ownership is part of my identity" it is not an argument that comes up, because people don't expect it to convince gun-opponents. But I think it is the main reason opposition to gun-control is so strong. Thank you for pointing that out.

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