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Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

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Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#661

Post by pohl »

amelius wrote: post #658
mark_l_watson wrote: post #229

This might just be a bargaining move on Apple’s part, but I don’t think so. I think that long term they are much better off controlling their entire hardware stack. I wouldn’t be surprised to even see them make their own display screens. As an Apple customer, I like this idea also. For 20 years, I used to be a desktop Linux fanatic and later became a fan of Android. In the last few years, I have switched to using all…

We should all not forget that if IBM, in the 80s, controlled its hardware and software stack like Apple does now, we would not have the modular desktop PC and we would not have Linux. I consider the extreme vertical integration of Apple as a bad development (Apple recently is trying to control even rare Earth metals). I like the market to be "modular", with many different vendors, making replaceable parts that fit to…

...we would not have the modular desktop PC and we would not have Linux.

There’s probably no way to support that counter-factual. We could easily have ended up with some other open-architecture personal computer and open source operating system.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#662

Post by mrgordon »

zarkov99 wrote: post #655
metafunctor wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, too, used to love tinkering with Linux. I would compile my own kernels, hack drivers and fix bugs to make it run better on the hardware I chose to buy. I wanted everything to be just so. Then, I realized that I have more money than time. I can choose Apple hardware, and run OS X (now macOS), trouble free. The only time I patched my Linux kernel was when some piece of hardware didn't work. Now, I simply choose hard…

Yes. And it just works. Gnome is not at MacOS levels of polishing but you get a proper dev machine instead of a pretty SSH terminal into your real dev machine.

I’ve seen way too many Dell lemons to believe its as simple as “it just works” with Linux.

Also, as someone who used to live next door to the creator of GNOME, saying it isn’t as polished as MacOS is quite an understatement.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#663

Post by zlynx »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #474
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creatives who want hardware optimized Adobe apps to continue to be fast will care. I wouldn't count on emulation of vectorized code to work all that well.

emulating x86 on ARM with any kind of real preformanceis additionally tricky because the x86 archetechure has very strong memory gaurentees (dosent matter if memory is aligned, dosent matter when in the instruction pipeline you access it, etc) that ARM isnt even close to matching. Emulating that requires a massive performance hit, because you essentially have to check every single memory access to make sure its not d…

From what I've heard, x86 to PPC or ARM emulators are doing dynamic recompiling and instrumentation. It catches the illegal memory accesses and rebuilds the code responsible to add paths with slower code with alignment compensation.

A lot of x86 code is aligned for speed already so it's a pretty safe bet to assume alignment and fix it up if wrong.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#664

Post by khedoros1 »

derefr wrote: post #466
electricslpnsld wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but the LLVM toolchain provided by Apple is a bit clunky and missing features relative to what you get from a typical Linux distro.

Something I don’t quite understand, coming from a scripting-language bqckground: why are you using your OS’s provided compiler toolchain (for anything other than building OS packages for distribution?) Is there no version manager for clang the way there is for e.g. Rust?

Speaking about the classical C/C++ mainstream, and more from the Linux perspective:

Tooling for C and C++ mostly relies on some external package manager, often the OS-provided one (on most Linuxes, for example). There isn't a standard cpan/npm/pip/cargo for C/C++, although there are plenty of tools that can do kind of the same thing.

There's also not much support for virtual environments (there are tools out there, but not ubiquitous tools). It's pretty easy to point the compiler to a different set of header files and libraries, even on a per-file basis, to get a similar effect.

And from the Apple side (which I have a vague understanding of, having dipped my toes in a few times): Most of the documentation assumes that you're using XCode, and I'm pretty sure that the version of the compiler is just tied to whichever version of XCode you're using (which has a somewhat looser tie to the version of MacOS you're running). So in that case, you'd be using the XCode-provided toolchain rather than the OS-provided one.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#665

Post by andreiw »

BillinghamJ wrote: post #549
tootie wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't they achieve that today by running legacy apps in a hypervisor?

The issue is implementing the features for the hypervisor’s emulation system without Intel-licensed hardware or software.

lol wut? VMware Workstation, Connectix/MS VirtualPC, Oracle VirtualBox, qemu, bochs...what Intel-licensed hardware or software?

How about FX!32 or it’s latest AArch64 cousin seen on Windows 10?

Of the above, qemu can target x86 and run on anything, Virtual PC ran originally on PowerPC, and FX!32 ran on the Alpha

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#666

Post by jjoonathan »

bwat49 wrote: post #624
freehunter wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the problem with saying "this is better for computer scientists": It's the same argument every time someone says "the Macbook Pro is not a professional device". Not every computer scientist has the same needs. There are a lot of CS folks who will never need to recompile a kernel or even get into the OS internals. For those people, having to do that is a major downside to any computer. So the obvious choice is…

> and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last time you used a linux desktop, 2005? On any linux desktop I can think of (MATE, Gnome, KDE) this is a matter of going to Settings | Mouse & Touchpad | check or un-check the natural scrolling box as desired

If it works.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#667

Post by jjoonathan »

freehunter wrote: post #651
merb wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the biggest problem with macs is not the software/openness. the biggest problem is the price. the older models might have had a justifiable price, however the new 15" models with a touch-whatever, costs way more and have less value. they actually even replaced the SD slot, which probably a lot of professional artists needed (or at least used). I used it to extend my harddrive with a 256gb extension card If I would ne…

>they actually even replaced the SD slot Isn't this the same argument people used when the Mac ditched the floppy, and then again when they ditched the CD-ROM drive?

And PS2 ports and phone jacks and ethernet ports, yes

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#668

Post by freehunter »

batuhanw wrote: post #647
bwat49 wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last time you used a linux desktop, 2005? On any linux desktop I can think of (MATE, Gnome, KDE) this is a matter of going to Settings | Mouse & Touchpad | check or un-check the natural scrolling box as desired

It kind of works but not stable as mac’s touchpad. You need to spend a lot of time to make 4 finger, 5 finger, zoom, pinch work stable. Also there are endless weird bugs you need to find out why. Had crashing ubuntu, opensuse right after the install. Traveling and working remote, battery power is very important. You cant shutdown or sleep your computer seamlessly. Its just simple thing. It should just work. Yes you c…

>Yes you can customize it as you wish but I dont want to

This was a big moment for me. I was a huge anti-Apple guy, I had built my own laptops and used Android and everything had to be open and hackable. Until one day I just realized it wasn't fun anymore. I would have to stop what I was doing to fix some broken (virtual or real) duct tape that held everything together.

I bought my first Mac the month I replaced the CPU, then the motherboard (wrong socket), then the RAM (incompatible with my new mobo), and then was staring down a dying video card in my desktop. I realized I didn't want to fix it. I picked the wrong parts because I didn't care anymore, I didn't care enough to do the proper research. I spent all day fixing computer problems, I hated doing it on my own time too.

What I want is a computing appliance that lets me do my job and nothing more. I don't have that yet, I still have to deal with system updates and reboots and filesystem maintenance and all that nonsense with my Macbook, but it's closer. I've been considering a Chromebook but I have had bad luck with Google products in the past.

Not a month goes by where I don't re-read Mark O'Connor's "I swapped my MacBook for an iPad+Linode" series and find myself agreeing more and more.

http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-...

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#669

Post by danappelxx »

SCAQTony wrote: post #652

I am curious as to how Apple can just jump into a new complex business and be instantly pro at it without buying out a chip manufacturer who is. Will there be a learning curve? Will Apple machines circa 2020 have a bumpy road or not as fact?

Don’t they manufacture chips for their iOS line of products?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#670

Post by tylerjwilk00 »

metafunctor wrote: post #604
blacklight wrote: post #560

I personally hate close fences with no rooms for customization, and many computer scientists are on the same wavelength. Windows is an awful choice for software development, a job that usually requires a lot of interaction with Unix servers. Microsoft's recent crush for Linux and open source can't fix many years of closed standards, closed protocols, and Embrace-Extend-Exterminate evil culture. And MacOS, even though…

I, too, used to love tinkering with Linux. I would compile my own kernels, hack drivers and fix bugs to make it run better on the hardware I chose to buy. I wanted everything to be just so. Then, I realized that I have more money than time. I can choose Apple hardware, and run OS X (now macOS), trouble free. The only time I patched my Linux kernel was when some piece of hardware didn't work. Now, I simply choose hard…

Wait! What! Virtual Desktops "Spaces" are gone in OSX?
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