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Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

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Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#401

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

> It starts this early so parents can get their kids to school and start working afterwards, without getting fired.

Numerous teachers in my school told me the real reason school doesn't start later is because of... wait for it: Sports.

Sports games/teams often finish practice/games as late as 6-8pm, especially after traveling for a game - and that's with a district whose high school started at 7:40am and middle school at 8am.

Is it too much for schools to actually prioritize academics over sports? Colleges are the same way.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#402

For what it's worth my son is at one of the best performing schools in NY State (Top 3%). They meet at 7.45AM every morning and get most of the learning done while they are the freshest. I am not convinced this study actually proves that but need to dig deeper in.

I am at my freshest from 11pm to 2am. If I try to be productive at 8am it is a waste.

I am fresh early. The point is that this is on a school level not individual so I think the performance of my sons school is pretty important example of the the report probably not being very conclusive.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is rotating schedules is more economically efficient than loading all the class-types onto one time of the day. This would mean you need more PE teachers in the morning, more math teachers in the mid-day. There's a reason schools have multiple periods of each course, and that those periods rotate day-to-day. One interesting follow-up study could be to compare night-owls/morning-larks in rotating…

At the root of it, they define "core" as Math and English with the goal to centralize those two in the middle of the day as much as possible. Physical Education, Art, Spanish, Music, History, Science, etc are scheduled around those accordingly. The main reasoning is simply that math and English are the two subjects that build upon each other the most from grade level to grade level and because of that, they are consi…

It's not about which subjects build on each other. These two are the subjects that have mandated federal testing in the US [1]. Low test scores in reading and math have consequences for schools and their leaders, so they get the priority slots.

[1] https://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/every-student-succeeds-act/...

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#404
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very true. Many workers have to go to work with medical problems, take desperate measures if they have car issues, and lose their job if they get arrested. If you've already missed 1 day for "my car broke down" and another for "I was vomiting", that one time you need to get the kid to school might be your 3rd strike.

I can't help but think American work culture / expectations are pretty toxic.

It can be this bad, but it's not very common.

Usually it happens in a job with fixed hours. Are you opening up the store in the morning? You'd better be there on time.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#405
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising children is one of the fundamental processes of human society. If there really were a will, we could rearrange everything for them. But the way we treat children and teenagers is rather callous and cynical at the system level.

If there was a will, teenagers would be allowed to come sooner or on bike or fully by themselves. If raising children would be really considered important, caregivers needa would not be treated with "shut up and do the things the most complicated way". For that matter, calling school that starts an hour sooner then optimal "calous" is overly hyperbolic, manipulative and dramatic.

They are not allowed to come home by bike now? What am I missing?

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#406
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My worst semester at University I had three 8am lectures... I knew I was a bit of a night owl, but at this point I didn't realise that I actually had a severe sleep disorder. I had just assumed that what people said (you just have to be disciplined, just go to be earlier, etc.) was potentially true, which was demoralising. It was actually pretty liberating to find out about differences in circadian rhythms. I still g…

So how did you solve your sleep disorder?

I haven’t yet... Managed to convince work to let me come in at 10-10:30am and I typically work until 6:30-7pm, or leave a bit earlier and do an extra hour or so from home at 9 or 10pm. So I still do a standard amount of hours for full-time here, just shifted back one or two hours.

Apparently your sleep cycle does slowly get earlier as you age so maybe I’ll be able to do 9am to 5:30 in a decade or so! I may go back to the doctor and try melatonin supplements or something, but as long as work’s OK with it I’m doing alright.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I mentioned up above that I've always been a morning person along with most of my friends. But, I didn't grow up with a device attached to me. Most of my activities growing up were outside. Going to school early meant more daylight after school to play. Even on weekends I was up with the sun, and often earlier since the surf was typically better early. All spring and summer we would be up at ~4:30am to go fishi…

I've never been a morning person. Always been awake late and struggled to wake up in the morning. Imagine how it feels to have people dismiss this as a problem with screen time when I grew up without any screens! (Literally - not even a TV).

I think you will find that people like to generalize everything to black and white so things make sense when in reality there are much more complex things at play, not to mention that humans are not designed to fit one mold. Somehow this is a commonly accepted truth when it comes to baby with “all babies are different” but when focus shifts to teens and adults we are supposed to be neatly organized into cstegories and labels. Pleeeeeeeease...

My point being, your situation is not necessary comparable to others. Case in point, as a child I had a difficult time falling asleep at night without screens. I woke up late and was always tired in the morning. You might attribute this to a number of some factors we probably don’t have time to discuss here. Now, as a teenager I was able to fall asleep like a rock on most days but was still tired the next day in class. I can’t tell ya how many times I’ve heard “that lazy guy” Label being applied to myself and others who shared this trait because imo it’s too convenient to label someone rather than trying to understand the underlying issues.

In any case, I tend to agree that school most definitely starts too early for a growing human being whose development takes place at night and specifically mostly during slee when body is at rest. Is it a surprise then that a developing body requires more sleep? Circadian cycles or not, kids should probably start school at a later time. Now, whether society can accept this and modify adult schedules around new findings is a question not easily answered. I suspect for this to happen, society as a whole will need to move away from 9-5 or at least become more remote and or flexible.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is rotating schedules is more economically efficient than loading all the class-types onto one time of the day. This would mean you need more PE teachers in the morning, more math teachers in the mid-day. There's a reason schools have multiple periods of each course, and that those periods rotate day-to-day. One interesting follow-up study could be to compare night-owls/morning-larks in rotating…

The actual problem began when humans invented candles and lightbulbs and started staying up past 8pm, and going to bed at inconsistent hours, therefore waking up tired the next mornings. Our optimal sleeping time is based on the rotation of earth around the sun. We have removed our brain's natural sleep trigger (lack of light) so our sleep habits have been getting out of whack for the last couple of hundred years.

If you mean day/night, that's the rotation of the Earth around its axis, not the rotation around the Sun.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual problem began when humans invented candles and lightbulbs and started staying up past 8pm, and going to bed at inconsistent hours, therefore waking up tired the next mornings. Our optimal sleeping time is based on the rotation of earth around the sun. We have removed our brain's natural sleep trigger (lack of light) so our sleep habits have been getting out of whack for the last couple of hundred years.

What is really interesting is that human's natural sleep cycle is not to sleep continuously for 8 hours. Our natural sleep cycle is to go to bed when it gets dark and then to wake up for a few hours in the middle of the night and get up and do things (apparently this is also the time when most sex happened since other family members in the same room were still asleep) and then go back to sleep and get back up at dawn…

Does this mean the natural sleep cycle time is a lot less in summer than it is in winter?

Why would other family members had been asleep? Wouldn't this natural sleep cycle have applied to everyone?

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#410
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you there. I think the article is bullshit. We are in control of when we go to sleep, and ultimately that determines our circadian rhythm. Not some mysterious unknown force. The correlation with alcohol and drug abuse is a cause not a result. I was very much in the camp of playing video games all night long but I didn't kid myself about early class times being the cause for my struggle. * Disclaimer: IANA do…

There are plenty of studies on what night shift does to people who have a normal circadian rythym. It isn't pretty.

Yes, but is that the jet lag effect from repeatedly switching times or just being awake at night?
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