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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#91

Post by psyc »

outworlder wrote: post #58
jaimex2 wrote: post #19

And this is why you lie on your entry level resumes kids.

Well, I once interviewed a guy who claimed to have done iOS development since 2007 – basically since the iPhone launch. There was no iOS SDK that year, it only came later. Guy was a bit embarrassed when I pointed that out. This could have been a honest mistake, but then I started looking for more "mistakes" and found a bunch more non-plausible stuff. I then went ahead and hired another guy with literally zero job exp…

Is this true? My business partner and I started doing iOS app development in august of 2008, and we were distinctly afraid we were late. edit: Ok, the SDK arrived in March '08. I guess we weren't that late.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#93

Post by crimsonalucard »

Waterluvian wrote: post #5

Won't the market sort out whatever this is? Is there a specific unfair mechanism at play that would prevent supply and demand from finding its balance?

Things in nature are rarely in equilibrium. What you see with your eyes to today is the aftermath of what remains after multitudes of systems have overloaded and destroyed themselves.

To assume that markets sort everything out is folly. Nature tends towards entropy.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#94

Post by eli_gottlieb »

StaticRedux wrote: post #72

3+ years doesn't mean 3+ years "in a job". That makes no sense. (Well, maybe for some companies it does, but you don't want to work there anyways). For some reason people can never get over that. It means 3+ years with a technology. It means don't walk in the door out of a Java college having used nothing else and apply to work on a Triple A game written in C++. It means don't show up after a weekend html course and…

Bull. I've been using Python since high school, but very few employers I've ever spoken to were willing to actually label me as having any years of experience in Python.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#95

Post by jdavis703 »

jamestimmins wrote: post #27

The buried lede here seems to be "In real life, folks need to apply to 150-250 jobs to get a job". I'd be so, so interested to see the breakdown here, and what causes these types of numbers. Are there just enormous numbers of applicants for every job? Are people applying for jobs they aren't qualified for? How does this compare in tech vs the rest of the job market? The signal/noise ratio must be absurdly low if this…

If you're applying to that many jobs, you're not being deliberate in the search. I've found all of my post-highschool jobs either from people in my network advertising something, or recruiters reaching out to me.

When I was in highschool I did not understand that it was really about who you know (I was homeschooled, so I didn't have a school network to reach out to for jobs), and went applying for typical highschool retail/fast food jobs willy nilly and never got an offer. It's because I was lacking someone who could "intro" me in to the organization. Now I can't really imagine trying to apply for a job cold.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#96

Post by lukeschlather »

nopassion wrote: post #80
holografix wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you can, I’ve been in tech companies where a fair few of my colleagues are not interested in tech. They want to be part of a “winning” organisation and make money. I sure as hell wouldn’t hire someone who has no interest in what my company is doing and that level of interest would have to increase relative to the role. What tends to happen is you get very slick operators who don’t produce anything because they do…

I used to work on email archival. Anyone who says they’re passionate about that is either lying or doped up on barbiturates.

It depends on the content of the emails.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#97

Post by gnopgnip »

Entry level doesn't mean people with no experience, and it means something different for every company. Entry level for the NFL means having 8+ years of football experience for instance. Not every company hires people straight out of highschool or college. But there still are many that will hire people with 0-1 years of experience for entry level roles.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#98

Post by vonmoltke »

michaelt wrote: post #71
whorleater wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>without any personal interest / passion in technology Can I not work in tech without being passionate?

Passion is a relative term. Nobody goes to work at Facebook or Google thinking "wow, I'm so passionate about adverts and tracking, I want to build a world with more ads and tracking in more places". It's normal not to be passionate about your work in that sense. However, some people find computers frustrating, stupid or boring. Such a person probably wouldn't enjoy a job working with them all the time - and it's diff…

> You need to be passionate in the sense of finding the work sufficiently non-loathsome that you can readily motivate yourself to do it.

That is a major abuse of "passion". While the original definitions are even stronger, something you are "passionate" about is something you actively seeking out to do. Something that is merely "sufficiently non-loathsome" is not a passion.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#99

Post by lifeisstillgood »

StaticRedux wrote: post #86
arkades wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their statements aren’t unique to tech. 3+ years of experience were not restricted to three years -with a technology-. I saw the same shit back when I was doing healthcare QI, and there is no tech to speak of there. In fact, they stated nothing to suggest they were looking at tech firms specifically. You seem to be reading into this what you want to see.

I'm speaking on the subject based on experience in my own field (I don't presume to know other fields). But I believe what I said applies anywhere. > An entry level position does not mean you get to learn on the job from scratch or near scratch.

in most fields it means exactly that - or it means "there is a well known educational syllabus that you have already followed and the next X years are the well known practical side of that education. At the end you will be rewarded with membership of a profession"

it works for lawyers, civil engineers and accountants. not for software engineers it seems.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#100

Post by walshemj »

bcheung wrote: post #12
crimsonalucard wrote: post #2

I get it though. The employer is thinking: Why do I pay you to train you? You should pay me to train you. Lets bring back the apprentice system.

I've said the same thing myself about bringing back the apprenticeship system. That system required a contract of typically 7 years though and that is why masters would take on apprentices. 7 years is a long time but if there is a way to have your investment not just walk out the door after you spent a bunch of resources getting them up to speed that would make it much more feasible. Perhaps a forgivable loan upon co…

I think 7 was the contractual term for the traditional "craft" apprenticeship blacksmiths starting at 14 - latterly 4 years starting at 15/16

For what's termed higher apprenticeships you either did a craft one first or joined later on at 18 or so.

The problem will come is that higher apprentices learn the fundamental building blocks and tech employers want people rote trained in " latest shiny tech"

Btw traditional apprentices where not guaranteed a job at the end, it was possible to sack an apprentice but you'd sack them on grounds on breach of contract. As they(or their parents) signed a biding contract - you could not make the redundant though.

Modern apprenticeships are normally direct employees now though - not sure about Germany though.

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