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Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

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Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#191

Post by wruwew8uu9 »

akuji1993 wrote: post #129
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

because they make it so easy to join but difficult to leave. It's basically a cult

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#192

Post by fibers »

baalimago wrote: post #171
akuji1993 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

Many look to Twitter as their new social media platform, that together with IG (which is owned by facebook sure, but it's "harder" to be political there, which it all comes down to in the end) and Snapchat as a messenger. Google plus failed, so why wouldn't Facebook eventually do so also? The youth don't have Facebook, it's mostly the 20-40 year olds who do. This 20-40 generation follow the mainstream media news and…

Except instas sponsored ads are more pernicious (from a mobile ux pov) than fbs including the fact that fb still tracks you on every site. All credit to the Zucc for buying insta and whatsapp since the entire world (especially on whatsapp) are locked in that ecosystem.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#193

Post by shanghaiaway »

akuji1993 wrote: post #129
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

Every company's destiny is decided by revenue and profit. Facebook will be fine as long as the advertising money keeps coming in. Will it? I don't see why not. Companies don't care about user privacy.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#194

Post by OliverJones »

akuji1993 wrote: post #129
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

> the largest part of the Facebook users has not even > realized the scandal in full scale.

Exactly. That's why they must be regulated. Pharma companies, food companies, and airlines, to mention three, have the same sorts of characteristics in their businesses.

Examples: Airlines have regulations because the typical user has no way to evaluate maintenance regimes or navigation procedures. The big information-hoovering dotcoms need the same sorts of regulations for the same sorts of reasons. "We obtained user permission" needs to be a stronger claim than "we tricked users into checking a box."

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#195

Post by ams6110 »

dm319 wrote: post #154
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I think the business sector needs to have a look at the way consent is done in the medical field, where huge terms and conditions with nasty stuff hidden away isn't ok. The concept in medicine is that consent for treatment is done in a simple way that encompasses things that are commonly an issue (but often a minor inconvenience), things that are rarely an issue but are disastrous, and things that might specifically…

I'm not sure what "understandable way" you are talking about -- as a patient anyway. Every time I've been or taken a family member to see a doctor, I have to sign a multi-page consent agreement (which I read about as closely as the Terms of Use on a website). What's the point? Am I not going to sign it? No, I'm there because I need care. I don't read it, and neither does anyone else I've asked about it.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#196

Post by mnx »

robryan wrote: post #162
ConcernedCoder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to formally welcome everyone to the world of a/b test-driven development! Nice easy-to-read high-contrast giant-font headings that seem legit: "Text anyone in your phone!" - Yay! that's exactly what I want!!! Tricky hard-to-read low-contrast micro-font fine print that looks like way to much trouble to try to read, detailing what ACTUALLY happens when you're tricked into clicking the: One brightly-colored-onl…

The opt out button is also "Not Now" so they can hit you with this screen again and again until you accidently opt in or want to make it go away.

yeah, that's how I recently clicked it - had to quickly install messenger (needed to make a video call, which the lite client I normally use doesn't support), clicked right through this. And normally I'm careful with such stuff.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#197

Post by JepZ »

reacharavindh wrote: post #61

So, this happened and we have confirmed about the dark patterns whether consented or not. What are good alternatives in this "Network effect" age? Facebook - I hardly use anymore. It exists undeleted because it serves as a kind of Social ID. I don't have the App installed anywhere, neither do I access it from my regular browser. The thing I'm struggling to get alternative for is WhatsApp. How could I talk to all my c…

I use XMPP since a few years in the way it was supposed to be used:

- federated

- multiple devices with different client software

- own server

It certainly isn't perfect, as there are a lot of 'classic' clients which lack the modern extensions (e.g. OMEMO [1], Carbons, MAM).

Clients ranked by personal preference:

- Conversations: very good, Android only, Downside: no calls (neither audio nor video)

- Gajim: 'classic' client, requires a few additional modules (slightly better than Pidgin when is comes to pictures)

- Pidgin: 'classic' client, requires a few additional modules

- Dino: very good Desktop client on paper (XEP wise), sadly it is lacking a few important desktop integration features like a tray icon, but as those should be easy to implement that client has a lot of potential.

- ChatSecure: iOS, Downsides: I never really got it to work properly. Without server side Push Notification extension it only received messages when the app was open. With the extension it worked for a few minutes, but still not what I would consider usable.

- Jitsi: certainly could be a good client, but at the moment it has no OMEMO support and therefore I stopped testing it.

While I am not a particular Matrix fan, I can recommend their Matrix vs. XMPP comparison:

https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-is-the-differen...

It basically boils down to: In 2012 XMPP was lacking some basic functionality required for mobile use-cases, so they went to build something technologically very different (Matrix). In the meantime, XMPP has developed its own extensions to support those use-cases and now we have two technologically very different solutions, set to solve similar use-cases.

[1]: https://omemo.top

EDIT: removed the indention from the list

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#198

Post by slivym »

anilakar wrote: post #83

I suspected this many years ago when familiar faces from our customers started to appear in the friend suggestion box. I've never installed the FB app on my phone, but our less privacy oriented customers probably have. What pisses me off is that while I can choose what information I share, I haven't given other people nor Facebook permission to read phone call logs that involve me.

Do you think you have the right to share with people your call logs without the permission of the people you were calling? I would say you do. So I don't see how you can reasonably object to someone sharing with Facebook the fact that they called you in their call log.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#199

Post by 46922010 »

briandear wrote: post #183
austincheney wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an easily testable premise. Ask anybody if they have deleted their Facebook account. If they are hesitating they probably won't.

Actually deleting the account doesn't matter -- if you don't use the account, that's what matters more and here's why. Facebook's revenue is almost exclusively from advertising. Advertising costs on Facebook depend on reach, PPM, and/or PPC. Facebook advertisers don't pay for "active users" or even "users" -- they pay for PPM/PPC. In other words, your data is relatively worthless if you aren't around to be targeted b…

> "your data is pretty much useless if you aren't there to be exploited because of it"

I'm not so sure. Isn't part of their business model to use gathered data from thousands of users to profile various different kinds of user for targetted ads?

In that case, your data is still being used to target ads at other users who fit a similar profile to you, and thus it still benefits Facebook on the whole, whether you personally see the ads or not.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#200

Post by freehunter »

austincheney wrote: post #147
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

There is nothing to suggest dark UX patterns were at play here. People simply gave Facebook access to everything because it was fashionable and convenient. People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience. It has been common knowledge for years that Facebook will directly use that data against you and still people, completely aware of this, didn't care. The only thing that made people…

When you install malware on your computer, it asks for permission too. People don't understand why their USB drive suddenly needs their account password, but they need to get the files that are stored on there so they type it in. That UAC popup may as well be triggered at random based on how often it shows up, and it never explains why.

Is that consent? Do you have a hard time finding the words to blame the malware creators?

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