Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA • Hacker News Board

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#501

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

manofmanysmiles wrote: post #394

edraferi wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted d…

I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with the reality, and does more harm than good. A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, o…

What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society?

There can be malice, but I think this is mostly akin to the idea of "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" only substitute ignorance for stupidity.

When I was homeless, I certainly ran into malicious behavior rooted in classism, mostly on a particular forum (not HN). But mostly I ran into people who just couldn't really comprehend my situation, so they didn't really know how to be effectively helpful. This can easily turn into a case of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#502

Post by smadge » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

knowThySelfx wrote: post #390

zanny wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine they would use Monero or Zcash nowadays since those are proven fairly more anonymized. Bitcoin is wholly public so all it takes is one identifiable wallet to start profiling addresses they interact with.

By Bitcoin I meant Blockchain based money.

Then you should say that or “cryptocurrency”

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#503

Post by lists » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #430

anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago. Life is too short to make excuses fo…

> Life is too short to make excuses for stupid behavior. Like meeting strangers on the internet and buying/selling sex for money? If it was legal, it could be better regulated, and they could operate with more safety...but it's not legal. While I'm in favor of decriminalizing adults engaging in adult behavior, I don't believe anyone goes into selling sex with a healthy attitude towards sex. They're typically victims…

>While I'm in favor of decriminalizing adults engaging in adult behavior, I don't believe anyone goes into selling sex with a healthy attitude towards sex. They're typically victims of sexual abuse at a young age, which has warped their perspective, leading them to believe that their biggest value is to sell their bodies for sex.

Source?

Also, healthy attitude? What's that and who exactly defined it?

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#504

Post by balls187 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

lists wrote: post #503

balls187 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Life is too short to make excuses for stupid behavior. Like meeting strangers on the internet and buying/selling sex for money? If it was legal, it could be better regulated, and they could operate with more safety...but it's not legal. While I'm in favor of decriminalizing adults engaging in adult behavior, I don't believe anyone goes into selling sex with a healthy attitude towards sex. They're typically victims…

>While I'm in favor of decriminalizing adults engaging in adult behavior, I don't believe anyone goes into selling sex with a healthy attitude towards sex. They're typically victims of sexual abuse at a young age, which has warped their perspective, leading them to believe that their biggest value is to sell their bodies for sex. Source? Also, healthy attitude? What's that and who exactly defined it?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20105147

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/why-do-women-become-prostit...

And, as to who exactly, psychologists.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#505

Post by balls187 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

ryanobjc wrote: post #489

balls187 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Life is too short to make excuses for stupid behavior. Like meeting strangers on the internet and buying/selling sex for money? If it was legal, it could be better regulated, and they could operate with more safety...but it's not legal. While I'm in favor of decriminalizing adults engaging in adult behavior, I don't believe anyone goes into selling sex with a healthy attitude towards sex. They're typically victims…

That belief isn’t just something they got from nowhere. Your contempt for their choices is bizarre and really offensive. If they have a better option, perhaps you could illustrate what that might be. Perhaps grab a coding job? Or waitressing, with all the benefits and pay that comes with (and sexual harassment with no recourse, not much #metoo for underpaid waitresses)? Or, are you offering a job?

What benefits come with being a prostitute? If you're worried about sexual harassment with no recourse, picking a profession with astronomically higher risk of sexual violence would be the last choice any rational person would make. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24625169

It's not comtempt; I just haven't fooled myself into thinking that prostitution isn't a victimless crime.

You've built a strawman for my argument; I'm not showing contempt for the choice of picking prostitution; but I am saying that in the US engaging in it, as a seller or as a buyer constitutes being stupid.

The increase risk of violence, sexual or otherwise, the risk to your families health, the risk to your own health, the risk to your career. All reasons why it's stupid.

I believe decriminalizing prostitution would reduce the risks--but regardless, those who go into prostitution will still be exploited, regardless of it's legal status.

If it were decriminalized (and remove it's social stigma) I don't see more people becoming prostitutes.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#506

Post by nybble41 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #451

edraferi wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted d…

> I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. I understand what you're saying. However, compare sex work to slavery (which it often is). Nobody wants to be a slave. Some desperate people might agree to be enslaved to pay off a debt. Yo…

By saying that a person can't voluntarily agree to become a slave, you are saying that you, not they, have the right to determine what happens to them. That is the essence of slavery right there. By taking away their choice you are claiming ownership over them. You haven't eliminated slavery at all; you've just assumed the role of slave-owner yourself "for their own good", much as other slave owners throughout history have justified their actions by claiming that their slaves would be incapable of managing on their own as free individuals.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#507

Post by throwawaymanbot » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

zeth___ wrote: post #154

halflings wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is key. I strongly believe that legalization is the only answer to the problem. Why do we have to "believe"? There are many examples to learn from, to see what works and what doesn't. For example, this study [0]. "This paper suggests it’s the latter. Using trafficking data from 150 countries, the authors find that "countries where prostitution is legal experience a larger reported incidence of human traffickin…

Sweden has more rapes per capita than any country outside of sub-saharan Africa. Whatever system they have they can keep.

Sweden also has a different type of reporting system to other countries. as well as that, Swedish women feel empowered to report rape to the cops due this better reporting system. Thus, other countries stats dont reflect true rape levels, as a lot of women don't want to go through the ordeal with the police for many different reasons, unlike Sweden.

But I think you are trying to hint at something else eh zeth? Imagine having the courage to just say it like a big boy...

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#508

Post by meri_dian » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

Delmania wrote: post #467

meri_dian wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, or conscious, but what if on some level, there is a motivation to hurt these people who they feel are inferior?" Doubtful. It's not that they don't want to help them, but more that there's simply not much government can do. Consider drug addicts. One of my good friends d…

> You can disagree with the means of the war, but the intent was to help society and the people most vulnerable in society by eliminating drugs through force. Ha, ha, no it wasn't. It was started by Republicans to get people angry at the hippies and black people. Read this: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/nixon-aide-war-drug... The salient quote is: "“We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against…

Sure that may have been one individual's motivation for the plan, but the public and subsequent governments thought it was a the best way to prevent drugs from infecting society.

When lawmakers seek to punish someone, they aren't doing it because they relish the suffering of the other person, but because they hope that person's pain will dissuade others from committing those same crimes.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#509

Post by meri_dian » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

malnourish wrote: post #500

Delmania wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can disagree with the means of the war, but the intent was to help society and the people most vulnerable in society by eliminating drugs through force. Ha, ha, no it wasn't. It was started by Republicans to get people angry at the hippies and black people. Read this: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/nixon-aide-war-drug... The salient quote is: "“We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against…

Are theft and murder so obvious? Obviously murder is among the greatest tragedies, but often it's a product of circumstance. Theft especially so

Really? A product of circumstance? How so?

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#510

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

Buge wrote: post #163

valuearb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you think 100% of personal ads are coerced sex trafficking, which would be rather crazy opinion. If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not drive it farther underground.

rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the intention wasn't to limit free choice. Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.

I feel like one is taken for a fool's ride if you lead discussion on legislation based on legislative intent, rather than function. Where does one find the purpose of voter literacy laws? Or California's Proposition 8? Based on the overt statements of individual legislators?