Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#211

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

jdbernard wrote: post #196

ryandrake wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every employer I’ve ever worked for has laid claim to all IP I produce, even on my own time using my own equipment at home. This is a very common clause in any tech company’s employment agreement. If you’re going to run away from these, your employment options are severely limited. The “within 1 year” thing, however is one I haven’t seen before. Ugly!

I've always pushed back against "all IP even on my own time with my own equipment." You're right that it's common in tech employment, but it's never been a deal-breaker for me. ---- edited to elobrate You can almost always reach a compromise if you aren't a jerk about it and can show you understand the company's concerns. Typically I have it modified so that if I'm using their resources at all (office, computer, pen…

In the past, when I’ve tried to politely push back against these, the response has always been a firm “sign the agreement unmodified or GTFO.” When your employer has 500 lawyers, you do what they say or get back to the job hunt.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#212

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #86

YogeeKnows wrote: post #68

This is just one of those things which looks evil from 'Employee' perspective but important enough from 'Employer' Perspective. You have to also look at the how these clauses found their way into these contracts. Certain professions; Legal/Software/IT Services/Accounting; make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby cau…

Also Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of not only the entire code they've written but also the entire code for the project they've been working on. Thats why the IP Protection clause. Great way to get sued. That's going to be logged. Isn't this what got Levandowski in trouble when leaving Google? I definitely do not do this. In fact, once you stop paying me, I don't care about your code…

I've never even heard of someone doing this. I know people sometimes want samples of their code from past jobs to show future employers, but even that I would explicitly ask about when leaving, and I certainly wouldn't ask for the entire codebase on anything large or meaningful.

Hell... I don't think I'd even want a copy in most cases, it seems like it'd open me up to legal and privacy risks without any actual benefit.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#213

Post by ben509 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #134

lmkg wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

When you get a job offer and do not have a current job you are automatically signing everything under duress. You don't get to eat unless you sign that, therefore you signed it. Such arguments tend to hold weight in court.

I'd love to see just one case where someone flew that line past a judge.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#214

Post by ben509 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

Sean1708 wrote: post #76

paultopia wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was very generous. I'd have laughed in their face in a similar situation.

No point burning bridges if you don't have to, you never know when a connection could come in handy.

They're also kind of burning bridges. "Hey, remember our company? When you left we demanded you sign something that threatened you with damages!"

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#215

Post by pktgen » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

ideonexus wrote: post #177

This is the flip-side benefit to living in Right-to-Work states. On the one hand, it's nearly impossible to unionize, but working as a contractor in Virginia, I had an agency try exercise the non-compete against me when I tried to take a job directly with their client. That client happened to be the Society for Human Resource Management. Their management laughed at the attempt and had a lawyer send the agency a lette…

Right-to-work is strictly anti-union BS and has nothing to do with non-compete agreements. A quick search suggests that non-competes are enforceable in both VA and NC if they meet certain criteria.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#216

Post by 52-6F-62 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #35

joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

The "I assign everything I do" aspect is complete bullshit anyways. The post 1 year makes it greedy. Personally I would unprofessionally laugh at the contact person and then specifically call them out for that sort of crap. Swearing might/would be justified.

Is laughing that unprofessional? From where I am it seems like the clause is unprofessional and laughter might be the appropriate response!

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#217

Post by ben509 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

lmkg wrote: post #40

tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

> (IANAL)

That reminds me, I am going to add some of these points to "questions for my employment attorney" for next time I change jobs. It's not very expensive to purchase an hour of an attorney's time and they can answer a bunch of questions like these.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#218

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

YogeeKnows wrote: post #106

rrdharan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of not only the entire code they've written but also the entire code for the project they've been working on. Is that really common practice? I don't doubt some people do this but it seems very foolish to me so I'm surprised that you think most engineers do this.

I have seen people bring in Portable Hard disks and copy the code. Lets say you have developed a utility messenger bot which alerts you every time SLA of your support ticket is about to be crossed. A developer would like to keep this 'completed+working' code with them to reuse in next projects. One of my employees left the company and he took all the Unity assets (assetstore.unity3d.com) I had purchased. I realized t…

> I had purchased

These strike me as the likely cases, yeah. Taking company-specific software seems like it's either useless (why would I even want some random inventory management system?) or spectacularly illegal, like taking a stock trading algorithm.

But I can imagine someone wanting random quality-of-life tools, though honestly just asking for those would probably suffice. And people certainly take expensive proprietary assets and programs that employers buy, though I'm not sure that really fits with the top-level fear of "our programmers stealing our data".

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#219

Post by jdbernard » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #211

jdbernard wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always pushed back against "all IP even on my own time with my own equipment." You're right that it's common in tech employment, but it's never been a deal-breaker for me. ---- edited to elobrate You can almost always reach a compromise if you aren't a jerk about it and can show you understand the company's concerns. Typically I have it modified so that if I'm using their resources at all (office, computer, pen…

In the past, when I’ve tried to politely push back against these, the response has always been a firm “sign the agreement unmodified or GTFO.” When your employer has 500 lawyers, you do what they say or get back to the job hunt.

Yeah, if they're not going to let me have any say in matters that directly affect my ability to put food on the table for my family then I'm glad to walk. If your prospective manager isn't willing/able to go to bat for you on things like this it's a good bet they're not going to be willing/able to go to bat on lots of other things that matter while you are there. Not worth it.

Or, if they really are your only option at the moment, you can also sign with the intention of claiming you did so under duress if sued, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#220

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #92

rrdharan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of not only the entire code they've written but also the entire code for the project they've been working on. Is that really common practice? I don't doubt some people do this but it seems very foolish to me so I'm surprised that you think most engineers do this.

I agree. Doing this would be stupid as hell, since it just opens you up to a lawsuit over stealing company secrets. Having knowledge in your head is one thing. Having actual code is another entirely.

I'm not sure I'd even take most corporate code if it was offered to me. It'd potentially drag me into any future breaches or noncompete violations, and have no upside I can think of. I'm honestly struggling to imagine why devs would bother taking most code when they leave a job.