Live data from Hacker News

Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

penguindreams.org

51–60 of 295 posts

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if only I could do that with software-enforced EULAs. You know, the things that nobody reads but generally sign away all your rights.

In theory you can (but unfortunately nobody does). Send a letter via snail mail that clearly states that you disagree with their EULA but were unfortunately only made aware of the EULA after your purchase. Include a printed, revised EULA with your proposals for changes. Be reasonable in the changes you propose. If they reply to you that they disagree with the changes, they can prohibit you from using the software or…

gasp

Are... are you... this is the internet and are you... you are serious? Can I believe this? I want to believe this.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#52
I agree with the general gist out there, but there are sane non competes. To take the one example I'm intimately familiar with, here in the Netherlands it's common for agencies to "rent out" some or all of their employees to work directly at customers (formally called secondment but I'm not sure that's a common term anywhere). This is because Dutch employment laws make firing someone hard, but terminating a secondment contract is easy. So it brings flexibility, plus the agencies are typically good at recruitment. Many tech companies's engineers have a huge chunk of their engineering teams be seconded via agencies.

Those agencies typically have a non-compete which, if it's the Good Kind Of Non-Compete, disallows employees who quit to take a job at the company they were last seconded to. This means that you can't, on paper, quit the agency to work directly for the company you were already working at via the agency.

In practice this works out fine, because the agency adds two values: flexibility and recruitment. What happens in practice is that if a company wants to take you over (a bit like buying a top sports player maybe), then the customer has to negotiate with the agency for some sort of buy-off fee. They tend to come to a sensible agreement fast, because the job market is great and if Joe Employee just was told he can't get his dream job because his current employer pulled a legal trick, he's not gonna want to keep working for the screwover employer long. So there's an incentive for the agency to make the deal.

There's also plenty evil non-competes here btw. Like "you can't ever work in our industry anymore" or "you can't ever work for any of our customers (and oh by the way all tech companies in the area are a customer haha lol)", etc.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#53

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

Yes, I've done exactly that several times. Couple of times they explicitly added provisions for hobby projects that I do in my spare time.

The whole premise behind the outrage is alien to me: any contract that you're presented with is just the first step of negotiation. Of course it favors the author. Present them with an alternative, and then, step by step, you come to a compromise.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#54

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

Tell them that you will agree to it on the perfectly reasonable condition that they will be paying you a years full salary plus fifteen percent on top to cover the administrative costs of self management, in order for you to provide them this service following the termination of your employment.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#55

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

In my experience the problem is that these clauses are traditionally presented to you by a non-technical employee typically from HR, and (in my anecdotal experience) these employees usually try to dismiss your concerns with a "oh it's just a formality" or "all companies make you sign this sort of thing!"... so if you're not important enough to talk to someone higher up, you might just get your offer revoked if you tr…

You have just been hired as their new rockstar developer. If HR lose you over this HR will be taking some flak.

Just speak to your future line manager and explain that you have returned a modified version of the contract and that you hope that they will agree to it soon because you are really excited to start working.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#56
post #18
post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

I've had an HR person tell me I needed to sign an NDA on the day I quit because it was missing (they forgot to hand me mine the day everyone got theirs). It included minimum damages of one year's salary for ANY breach. I had a lawyer friend write a much nicer and more reasonable version and told them that was the most I would sign. The only reason I even signed anything was to preserve the connections I had made ther…

It’s pretty typical to be asked to sign an NDA or other restrictive agreements at termination time if you’re getting a severance payment or other benefits that you wouldn’t otherwise get if you were voluntarily leaving the company.

What were the circumstances in which they asked you to sign?

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#57
post #40
post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

Unethical?

It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#58
post #32

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

It's not enforceable. However, in that post year if you "invent" something and they can tie it back to their business "somehow", they will come after you (maybe).

And that's really the big problem in my eyes (ignoring how ridiculous it is in and of itself.) I'd be opening myself up to a potential lawsuit. Even if it's deemed unenforceable I still have the hassle and legal costs to deal with.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit. That is way, WAY crazier than a non-compete. That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. Even if you go and work for a non-competing company in a completely different field, and invent something totally unrelated t…

In some states, it's not enforceable unless there's a monetary compensation that goes along with it.

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#60
Thought experiment: it may be interesting for a corporation to insert a fairly crazy NCA rule just to see how the applicant reacts.

Every now and then there are some crazy stuff happening in big organizations, and you probably want someone who is able to call those out, politely but firmly, rather than pushing them under the rug.

Post reply on HN