Putting aside the specifics of the system in China, the underlying issues are a problem all countries need to explore. On many near capacity public systems it only takes a few bad actors to completely foul things up for entire sections, eg delaying a subway line.
Traditional social pressure seems not to work anymore, for instance with this case on a train in the UK: https://youtu.be/2mpKu_x2s3w
In that case the train was delayed until eventually the guard said they had to allow the smoker to stay on the train or it would affect the line! Part of their argument was there were no signs saying you couldn't smoke on the train (smoking is illegal inside in any public spaces!)
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
541–550 of 602 posts
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#542Earlier quoted context omitted.
>My understanding is that work is optional Its officially optional on paper, but in practice it can be held against you and result in worse treatment and longer prison time (such as being used against you in parole hearings). Also, slavery doesn't require being used for labor. While most slavery is for some economic gain to the slave holder, it isn't a required component.
> Its officially optional on paper Except in that in the federal system and many state systems, it's officially required of all able-bodied prisoners and refusal gets extra punishment, such as solitary confinement.
"solitary confinement" which is properly recognized as a form of torture. So you CAN opt to be tortured instead. Clearly optional
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#543Earlier quoted context omitted.
13th Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---------------- Slavery is ALLOWED if guilty of a crime. So go on ahead and keep espousing "rah rah USA". We're still in a slave country.
If someone is found guilty and is given "community service" of a given specification as their retribution to society, is that not technically slavery (involuntary servitude)?
People can select an institution to do community service. Call in sick. Opt to change their mind and do said service at a different place. Although they owe x number of hours of service their labor is their own and cannot be sold by a third party nor are they held against their will.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#544Earlier quoted context omitted.
> According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines. That's just the sales pitch to make it seem reasonable and positive to the average person. It's naive to think that this social credit system won't have a political component. Here are some descriptions of some current pilot programs that make that much clearer: ht…
>Sharing what Sesame Credit refers to as "positive energy" online, nice messages about the government or how well the country's economy is doing, will make your score go up. Sounds like a propaganda botnet that uses gamification to spread influence evenly. By incentivizing many intermittent points of influence the propaganda cannot easily be filtered from the rest of the data.
Sure it can just filter out anything that obviously comes from China or seems similar to content coming from that direction. Oh you meant in China? Have fun with that.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#545Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can also bring up japan as a counter-example. It's even safer and cleaner & it's still a democracy!
Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership.. And has only really had once party in power throughout the history of its democracy (like 3 years or so without): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japa... Not sure its the best counter example
>Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership..
What does any of that have to do with Japan as of 2018? Unless you are arguing that their clean streets and robust infrastructure was some sort of lingering effect of an emperor from 2000 years ago, and not due to post WW2 liberal democratic reforms, this has nothing to do with anything.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#546And it's not only that they can do this at all as if this wan't already bad enough; on top of that neither the media, nor anyone else for that matter, can discuss/critizice this in public other than to admire it.
Harmony.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#547Earlier quoted context omitted.
Totally agree with you on this point. Most westerners don't have knowledge about Chinese "hukou" system and easily mislead by false information.
Most "Chinese" online seem to be paid trolls who deliberately feed misleading and false information. Either that or they have a switch in the brain where any critisism of China leads to a nationalistic brain freeze where they regurgitate silly propoganda. The Hukou system is broken and inconsistent. Getting mine revoked was the biggest pain the ass. I'm sure there are anecdotal evidence to support your view, but the…
I would say this also applies to many "non-Chinese" online. They either fall for racist stereotypes, or they have a similar switch in their brain where any mention of China means they are doing something nefarious and evil.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#548Earlier quoted context omitted.
>However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.
Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot…
Criticism is not the same as censorship.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#549Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most "Chinese" online seem to be paid trolls who deliberately feed misleading and false information. Either that or they have a switch in the brain where any critisism of China leads to a nationalistic brain freeze where they regurgitate silly propoganda. The Hukou system is broken and inconsistent. Getting mine revoked was the biggest pain the ass. I'm sure there are anecdotal evidence to support your view, but the…
Most Chinese abroad (that I meet, might be biased of course) seem to be students on a sort of foreign scholarship from the Chinese state. And they are terrified of the consequences of discussing this. Probably for exactly that reason.
Or could it be because they have benefited from the system, they think it's a good thing?
For example, I rarely see expats in Asia complain about why there are so many Hollywood movies in Asia.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#550better title would be: china expands list of people prohibited to use public transport
right now it is clickbait