351–360 of 602 posts
To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
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Having your nosy neighborly aunties edumacating you is one thing. Having some bureaucrat or AI far away instilling virtues with no reciprocal responsibilities is something only a pompous madman can dream of, and not Confucian at all.
My very vague and armchair-esque fear is that sophisticated technology is actually the missing gap of truly and seamlessly centralizing control and power. Communism is awkward because it's actually quite hard to understand, much less control a human being in all his or her subtleties and motivations. It's easy to point to terrible, heavy-handed actions, but with an increasingly pervasive and subtle system, can we eve…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.
Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony
They started off purchasing and as an initial market as well as testing ground for Western technology and Western technology companies.
Now, China has gained the technology and sophistication to roll their own.
But that doesn't mean they won't market it, both commercially and to aid their allies in creating and maintaining similar forms of governance and stability (at the tip of an connection, if not a gun).
So, they may be building this domestically, from the ground up. Nonetheless, the expression remains and remains apt, and concerning: "China is the prototype."
Many people around the world, in government and in private business, continue to express enormous interest in this type of monitoring and control.
In the U.K., of all places, that "bastion of democracy", leadership is openly advocating for the ability to monitor and censure all connections.
They are going to control with whom you communicate and associate, by way of real world penalties and controls.
In the U.S., what greater limit on "freedom to associate" than taking away one's ability to travel?
"It can't, won't happen here."
Ahuh. Just like outsourcing was going to elevate our employment prospects and wages. "We'll be the managers."
How did that work out?
Automation is going to get a lot more done with less hands. How do you think they are going to decide who benefits?
I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
I feel that most people doing this subconsciously feel like they're acting as a counterweight to the ultra patriotism of other segments of the population, but in acting as such a counterweight they appear as absurd as their ideological opponents.
Both sides annoy me for the same reason: they are blind to reality.
I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
But I worry the West will be watching this closely to see how they might implement something similar.
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Not to imply that the American system is good, but at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. With the "social credit system" things are much more fluid and subjective, so there's going to be a much greater culture of fear surrounding it. Granted, we have the same problems with our own credit system, but at least ours only applies to and is affected by finances. The…
> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines.
That's just the sales pitch to make it seem reasonable and positive to the average person. It's naive to think that this social credit system won't have a political component. Here are some descriptions of some current pilot programs that make that much clearer:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/chinese-government-social-cr...:
> But the fourth category, behaviour and preference, is where it gets interesting.
> Under this system, something as innocuous as a person's shopping habits become a measure of character. Alibaba admits it judges people by the types of products they buy. "Someone who plays video games for ten hours a day, for example, would be considered an idle person," says Li Yingyun, Sesame's Technology Director. "Someone who frequently buys diapers would be considered as probably a parent, who on balance is more likely to have a sense of responsibility." So the system not only investigates behaviour - it shapes it. It "nudges" citizens away from purchases and behaviours the government does not like.
> Friends matter, too. The fifth category is interpersonal relationships. What does their choice of online friends and their interactions say about the person being assessed? Sharing what Sesame Credit refers to as "positive energy" online, nice messages about the government or how well the country's economy is doing, will make your score go up.
If they're slurping up your purchases and social media for your credit score, it's going to be a lot more than about if you lie or fail to pay fines.
Also what might "false information about terrorism" really mean in practice? Vouching for your friend when the government thinks he's a dissident?
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https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation...
To save the curious reader some Googling since the article doesn't seem to explain beyond "forced labor", one can be compelled to work under threat of solitary confinement at Angola so long as they are deemed medically able. Not quite full-on Chattel Slavery, it still is compensated and there is an "out," but that does seem borderline.
To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…
If this is a modern iteration of confucianism, then confucianism is equivalent to a caste system.
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Right. To me, the idea is bad in general, however, if they are going to be doing it, at least be fair and allow for someone to rebuild their social credit just like financial credit.
If you think the financial credit system in the US is working smoothly, you might be mistaken! Post-FACTA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_and_Accurate_Credit_Trans... ) it's a lot better, but just ask the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau how much ... https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-overs...