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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#141

Post by jdietrich »

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#143

Post by cornholio »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #68
walterbell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like every other country, they want a healthy economy, which requires innovation. China's proposed social credit system would be counterproductive to innovation, i.e. the cost may be too high.

People have been hoping for this link between freedom and economic development for years about China. It turns out that it's just wishful thinking. China is much richer and no more free than it was decades ago.

Actually, that's not a surprise; throughout history, dictatorships often failed when economic conditions where dire, see the Eastern block, while economic prosperity always consolidated strongmen - Hitler and Putin for example.

But the social changes technology and development produce are far reaching, and usually well correlated on the long term with a democratic society. It's hard to care about liberty when you don't have food on the table, and a lower educated and poor person is much more likely to accept authoritarianism as an acceptable compromise.

I'm very hopeful for China's future and Hong Kong's peaceful resistance is a model that wil spread.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#144

Post by z2 »

pishpash wrote: post #88
hosh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…

Having your nosy neighborly aunties edumacating you is one thing. Having some bureaucrat or AI far away instilling virtues with no reciprocal responsibilities is something only a pompous madman can dream of, and not Confucian at all.

My very vague and armchair-esque fear is that sophisticated technology is actually the missing gap of truly and seamlessly centralizing control and power. Communism is awkward because it's actually quite hard to understand, much less control a human being in all his or her subtleties and motivations. It's easy to point to terrible, heavy-handed actions, but with an increasingly pervasive and subtle system, can we even tell if we're being gently guided to act for it?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#145

Post by hexane360 »

reaperducer wrote: post #112
bhouston wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a Black Mirror episode?

It's the "Majority Rule" episode of The Orville: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orville#Episodes

It's Community's "App Developments and Condiments"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Development_and_Condiments

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#146

Post by mastax »

echevil wrote: post #133
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

The time limit for negative information is 7 years.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#147

Post by DamnYuppie »

jdietrich wrote: post #141
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#148

Post by will_brown »

coliveira wrote: post #134
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?

Why highlight “black people”? Do white people convicted of crimes not carry a stigma? Hispanics?

Notwithstanding the qualifier, I think the difference between criminal records and social credit is the system itself. While flawed at least the (US) court system provide certain safeguards: due process, equal protection, right to remain silent, right to confront accusers, right to a lawyer even if you can’t afford one, ect...

What safeguards are in place for a system of social credit?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#149

Post by rrggrr »

dev_throw wrote: post #8

This illustrates the difference between having laws and enforcing them. Some countries have strict laws, but little enforcement, so marginalized people can break these laws as long as they fly under the radar. With technology, it becomes trivial to implement enforcement for even draconic laws at a scale previously unfathomable. Also, they seem to be rolling it out slowly. It reminds of the metaphorical boiling frog s…

Next steps:

1. Extend social credit to non-Chinese living in China. 2. Expand to companies and individuals doing business with or visiting in China. 3. Export the program to finance dependent nations outside China. 4. Require companies depending on Chinese income to enforce the regulations in a 'know your customer'-esque format.

There will be less resistance to this than one might think.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#150

Post by plsstopnow »

jrs95 wrote: post #114
mFixman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a gigantic difference between losing your driver's license and not being allowed to take any kind of long-distance transportation.

Most of Ohio doesn't really have a good transportation alternative to driving, so it's actually pretty similar.

Please stop.
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