China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#221

Post by coldtea » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #176

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/thousands-chin... Meanwhile, back in the US, we've actually begun to recognize our mistake as a culture. Thus eight states have legalized marijuana, and another dozen will go that way soon. Decriminalization of drug…

>Over a decade ago the US recognized the huge mistake of mass incarceration, as such the US prison population has peaked and has begun to decline, with both sides of the political aisle now openly discussing how to correct that broken system.

Until the US has a share equal to its percentage of the global population of incarcerated people (instead of 4-5 times that), and has abolished the death penalty, the shame that are private prisons, and improved the third-world conditions of its prisons, it has nowhere near "recognized its mistake as a culture".

It just has a few fewer prisoners than a decade ago, because of several factors -- including the legalization of marijuana. It's still as Old Testament and punishing to its inmates, and especially to the black population, as ever otherwise.

Btw, regarding China, let's cut it some slack.

For historical reasons not all countries develop at the same speed or are at the same stage. 40 years ago the US still had aggregation. 80 years ago it still lynched blacks.

And China 50 years ago had mass political executions and a full on political slash civil war -- compared to that, sentencing 10 people on a stadium with a crowd present (not executing them with a crowd) is BS.

(Especially since the US also has non-judicial citizens and even relatives of victims attend executions, to enjoy their revenge on the person dying...).

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#222

Post by lxmorj » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #171

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

In Virginia, felony larceny starts at $200, easily within coat range. I once had jury duty and was faced with the prospect of sentencing the defendant to up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving stolen goods valued at least $200. I got rejected from the jury, probably because I said I couldn’t possibly consider 20 years in prison for that.

I feel like at that point, it'd be morally correct to lie to get into the jury...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#223

Post by _bxg1 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #141

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Not to imply that the American system is good, but at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. With the "social credit system" things are much more fluid and subjective, so there's going to be a much greater culture of fear surrounding it. Granted, we have the same problems with our own credit system, but at least ours only applies to and is affected by finances. There's a boundary to keep both the fear and the effects from leaking into all corners of life.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#224

Post by ulzeraj » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #67

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…

In other words, fascism, that is, the belief that a society needs very strict moral guides and leadership to thrive.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#225

Post by throwawayjava » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #201

throwawayjava wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(edit: oy, this is a controversial comment? karma score is swinging wildly. I don't mean to suggest that China's social credit system is a good idea or that it has an equivalent in the USA. It's just worth pointing out that China's own characterization of the system is pretty similar to how things work in the US...) From the article: > People who would be put on the restricted lists included those found to have commi…

> The US will ban you from flying if you are politically controversial [1] The provided source doesn't support this claim. The only part which could even remotely be constructed as support for this claim would be 3 and the anecdata there include "He suspects" and "He thinks" - on the other, that you can end on such a list without knowing the reason (and often without recourse afair) is a real problem, but that's not…

So I suppose it's possible that a professor with controversial opinions ended up on a no-fly list for some reason completely unrelated to his politics. Occam's razor, though...

There are other abuses that we have concrete evidence of. E.g., refusing the cooperate with the FBI. (https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/laws...).

Hell, up until 2005, the TSA used CREDIT SCORES as a component in deciding who should be on no-fly lists...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#226

Post by wdr1 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

The first sentence in the article states the restrictions are "for up to a year".

Where does your "always restricted" come from? Not to be rude, but did you read the article or just the headline?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#227

Post by daodedickinson » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Resisting the Chinese Communist Party is not a mistake IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MISSION ON THE PLANET TODAY. Even the pope has given up his right to name bishops to the CCP. The pope is no longer Catholic and has become Communist just a few decades after JP2 gave us such hope. Now communist propaganda has Americans disarming themselves and praising the CCP as the best government in the world. Humanity is doomed and when AI takes over there will be nothing left of humanity worth saving.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#228

Post by labster » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

vondur wrote: post #195

jamesblonde wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about 3 strikes in many States?

Originally, the 3 strikes laws were to be used only against violent felonies. I'm not sure how they were able to include non violent offenses to the list.

Easy. Find one example of someone who stole something three times, then later murdered someone. Scare people with this fact. Make up a theory about how larceny is a gateway to violence.

This is, exactly, how the immigration debate is being held in DC. One undocumented shot and killed a citizen by accident, and now we're supposed to kick all immigrants out. Visceral emotion is a great tool to optimize society for corner cases.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#229

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #183

heedlessly2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because if black people get accused of a crime, most people believe they actually committed it. If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt

> If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime. So to be surprised by that is understandable. Take color and class out of it, you need only compare "man accused of crime" vs "woman acc…

> It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime.

You're confusing "commit" and "get caught and receive significant consequences".

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#230

Post by SamReidHughes » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #165

ams6110 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. This is the marketplace at work. It's not a government-imposed ban on access to public services.

The only way the marketplace can do this is with the support of the government. The government provides felony records after all.

So you think what, the courts should be secret?