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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#491

Post by [deleted] »

gus_massa wrote: post #467
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

> The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical ... Just assume that a few seconds after you post a comment Google, Bing, Facebook and a few other major Internet sites have scrapped your comment and are analyzing it. And there a few aggregators that repeat the HN content and alternative UI for HN. And some users make a local copy to run some statistics or detect dupes or just for curiosity. Some…

[deleted]

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#492

Post by mirimir »

emodendroket wrote: post #490
mirimir wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing that there's a difference. I'm saying that it'd be odd if there weren't a difference. Also, it's not useful to lump China with Asia overall.

China is, historically speaking, the most influential country in East and Southeast Asia, as evidenced by the fact that Korea, Japan, and Vietnam all use or used a script derived from Chinese characters and that there is a large Chinese diaspora in even more countries in the region. On what basis would we consider China an outlier? Just the post-war era? Despite ambitions to do so the CCP did not exactly sweep away C…

I'm not sure why we're arguing. China clearly is different from the West. And so are other Asian nations. Not as different as China is, however. Maybe more or less proportionally vs relative cultural influence from China and the West.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#493

Post by sizzle »

gus_massa wrote: post #467
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

> The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical ... Just assume that a few seconds after you post a comment Google, Bing, Facebook and a few other major Internet sites have scrapped your comment and are analyzing it. And there a few aggregators that repeat the HN content and alternative UI for HN. And some users make a local copy to run some statistics or detect dupes or just for curiosity. Some…

What if someone pretends to be you and posts incriminating posts?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#494

Post by realusername »

EpicEng wrote: post #459
emodendroket wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that you committed a crime, landed yourself in jail, are not the property of the state, and have a finite term to serve. Sounds like a big difference to me.

Does not seem any different to me, if the only difference is the jail, you can just create a bullshit law to put those people in jail (see the war on drugs).

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#495

Post by emodendroket »

mirimir wrote: post #492
emodendroket wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is, historically speaking, the most influential country in East and Southeast Asia, as evidenced by the fact that Korea, Japan, and Vietnam all use or used a script derived from Chinese characters and that there is a large Chinese diaspora in even more countries in the region. On what basis would we consider China an outlier? Just the post-war era? Despite ambitions to do so the CCP did not exactly sweep away C…

I'm not sure why we're arguing. China clearly is different from the West. And so are other Asian nations. Not as different as China is, however. Maybe more or less proportionally vs relative cultural influence from China and the West.

I disagree with the idea that it "isn't useful to lump in China with Asia overall" because, in fact, there is a lot of commonality between Chinese culture and other Asian cultures.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#496

Post by yorwba »

door3 wrote: post #458
allthenews wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It has been shown time and time again that black Americans are disproportionately arrested and sentenced. And you also conveniently ignore that blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes. Such discussions cannot be productive until we are willing to admit to both sides of the problem. I do not deny that there are inequities in our justice system. However, disproportionate police presence in l…

>blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes. This is a racist lie. If you control for socioeconomic factors, the difference totally vanishes.

If a correlation is completely explained by controlling for a third factor, that doesn't make the original correlation a lie. If black people are poorer than average and poor people commit disproportionately more crimes, blacks committing disproportionately more crimes is just what you'd expect.

What knowing the controlling variable does is give you additional information about what interventions are likely to change the situation. If you thought the reason for more crimes committed by blacks were their skin color, you might think that vitamin D deficiency is the culprit and attempt to provide them with supplements. Knowing the influence of economic factors makes that suggestion appear silly, and crime-prevention efforts would be better focused on improving the economic standing of blacks.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#497

Post by damnyou »

Chaebixi wrote: post #381
DoreenMichele wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... It is also apparently mentioned in Hillary Clinton's memoirs that they had unpaid prison labor at the governor's mansion to save money .

>> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? > Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: Let's look up the definition of "slave": > a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; Prison labor is not slavery, this is clearly shown by the fact that you can't buy or sell prisoners on the open market . Prison labor is involuntary servitude . I…

Chattel slavery is not the only form of slavery.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#498

Post by miketery »

azakai wrote: post #19
RubenSandwich wrote: post #4

If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive .

The Electric Dreams episode "Safe and Sound" also explores these issues, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6980876/

I was thinking you were going to link to "Kill all Others"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6912900/?ref_=ttep_ep7

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#499

Post by kaybe »

glegouard wrote: post #140

It is sad to see that humans need such a system to respect rules and others. There is also the danger that the rules to respect change over time...

No, we don't need it.

The rules most of us disrespect are routinely are not useful in the specific cases (eg I'm not going to wait at a red light in the middle of the night as a pedestrian, only as a driver). Almost all people are actually nice to each other, at least where I have been.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#500

Post by dheera »

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

> but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country

Side point but generally speaking you don't need a national ID to open a bank account or buy train tickets online. Banks do require a +86 mobile number, which you can get with your passport alone. You can then use your +86 mobile number, passport, and hotel address to open a bank account. You can then add your bank account to WeChat and buy train tickets there. You will have to line up to pick up your electronically-purchased tickets as paper tickets, using your confirmation code on WeChat and your passport, which is a huge inconvenience compared to those swiping their national IDs to get into the trains (they built the entire train system basically only for locals), but there are separate lines for ticket pickup that move quickly, so it's not as annoying as getting in line to buy tickets and the finding out that seats are sold out. At least your WeChat purchase guarantees you your journey and seat.

You can also use Alipay instead of WeChat if you prefer.

That said I'm not sure if there are additional restrictions on Chinese passports, but a non-Chinese passport can use the above procedure.

Of course it's a massive pain in the ass because of all the stupid SMS confirmations and things involved in the process. Easily the worst UI/UX I've seen of a ticketing system. The trains themselves are fantastic though.

Also, yes, everything is tracked to your passport number, so even if you have no national ID you do still become part of the same "credit" system.

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