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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#131
post #72
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive divide between private citizens harassing and bulling one another and governments wielding a monopoly on force outlawing and punishing dessent against the ruling class. You can sue someone for attacking you online if they cause provable financial or social distress. Go try suing the CCP in China for not providing freedom of speech and see how that unexplained disappearance treats you.

Yes, but in this case we’re talking about the government punishing the same practices that the polity will harass and bully a person over, rather than just practices that are against the state’s own interests, in addition to the state suppressing things it actually derives benefit to itself by suppressing. Or, to put that another way: if there’s a lynch-mob after you, does it matter how many of its members are in uni…

Yes it does. Because it answers whether there are people in uniform that can protect you.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#132

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Here are the original NDRC documents being reported here:

http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html for air travel

http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html for train travel

and Chinese news summary: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546...

Use Google translate to check if this is being misreported.

In China you are "bad credit" if you refuse to pay despite a court order. In the US you could be jailed for contempt of court.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#133

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#134

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#135
post #9

The thing that worries me most about the autocracy in China is that all of these Orwellian measures would actually work and then would be pointed out as an example to abandon our civil liberties in favor of a system that may be big brotherly but at least "your kids will always be safe, never be close to any bad person" (By We I'm referring to Democracies). It may also be a uniquely Chinese thing too though. China has…

Political systems were deeply integrated with philosophical and religious streams, all braided together for at least several thousand years.

As I mentioned elsewhere, this system is not new or novel in concept. Confucian ideals see people as animals on their way to being human. The cultivation of the "superior person" requires education and much socialization. This isn't what people in America should be concerned about.

China was at several point, a dominant power. I think a lot of people forget this. It was in the middle of the Ming dynasty, for various reasons, started turning inwards -- making major extensions of the Great Wall, recalling expedition fleets ... much like America is doing today.

The West may remember China as a third-world country or a target too weak to resist colonization, but the Chinese remember when various regions such as modern-day Vietnam, Okinawa and Korea were vassal states (have you ever seen any Korean historical drama? So much resentment related to that). Chinese as a whole don't feel themselves to be culturally inferior, yet the Western views of China seem to subconsciously think of the Chinese culture that way.

This blind spot seems to miss something that China is doing right now: the Chinese are making a bid to be the next superpower, either as America's peer, or supplanting America in that role. This includes things anywhere from adding Chinese-flavored events to the Olympics; Extending funds and industrialization to Africa; building a rail net that not only ties China internally together, but also extend reach and influence across the Asian and European continents; heavy investment into technologies such as AI, quantum tunneling, in-house chip designs, life sciences, much through luring back Western-educated people with advanced degrees whose student visas have expired; developing military capabilities -- traditional force multipliers such as refurbishing an old Soviet-era aircraft carrier to increasing asymmetric capabilities such as developing drone carriers (the Chinese produced a Sun-Tzu, after all); attempts to break American influence on oil by creating a new reserve currency for trading crude. Much of this is being funded by the money being spent by American consumers. (And the Chinese had already learned the lesson of becoming insular).

The Chinese don't come across as complacent, though I often get that sense of complacency from the Western perspective.

It is this culture that is making a bid as a superpower to influence the rest of the world into doing things the "Chinese Way".

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#136

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Is this a Black Mirror episode?

Yes, the episode is called "Nosedive."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/on-demand/2017/12/15/black-mirro...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#137

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Right. To me, the idea is bad in general, however, if they are going to be doing it, at least be fair and allow for someone to rebuild their social credit just like financial credit.

If you think the financial credit system in the US is working smoothly, you might be mistaken! Post-FACTA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_and_Accurate_Credit_Trans...) it's a lot better, but just ask the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau how much ...

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-overs...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#139

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

Every bad mark expires after 7 years generally.

Many times, you can contact the company who you owe and set up a plan where they'll remove the bad mark if you pay the debt in full.

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