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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#381

Post by Chaebixi »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #344
mieseratte wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? My understanding is that work is optional, comes with a very small amount of compensation as incentive, but is otherwise non-compulsory. Is any US State or Federal prison running cotton plantations in Georgia with forced, uncompensated labor?

Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... It is also apparently mentioned in Hillary Clinton's memoirs that they had unpaid prison labor at the governor's mansion to save money .

>> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion?

> Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example:

Let's look up the definition of "slave":

> a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another;

Prison labor is not slavery, this is clearly shown by the fact that you can't buy or sell prisoners on the open market. Prison labor is involuntary servitude. It's still shitty and in need of reform, but hyperbole does no one any good.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#382

Post by nielsbot »

hannasanarion wrote: post #369
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. But I worry the West will be watching this closely to see how they might implement something similar.

How could they? Americans are too paranoid to allow an ID card, much less a centrally tracked loyalty-points number to use at party-owned shopping, transit, utility, housing....

Are we not getting a national ID card soon? (State drivers' licenses that meet certain requirements.)

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#383

Post by jrs95 »

pishpash wrote: post #151
jrs95 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a much bigger risk that the developing world will look to the Chinese model as an inspiration IMO

A way of life worthy of living is not afraid of an alternative's existence.

This isn't even an argument, it's more like an inspirational quote my grandma would share on Facebook

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#384

Post by CitizenKane »

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

For what it's worth I doubt many of those commented have ever lived (or even visited) China. It's easy to create a false equivalency when you have no real experience of the situation.

This is a different situation, and it's sadly Orwellian.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#385

Post by jrs95 »

adventured wrote: post #203
SubiculumCode wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like what happens once you have a felony in U.S. I mean that a felony removes your right to vote, makes employment much more difficult.

How does whataboutism about bad US policy improve the nature or standing of China's bad policy?

"muh whataboutism"

You're not even using this term correctly. Not that hardly anyone is since it's become popular...but still. Whataboutism is a very specific thing, and every time someone draws a comparison it doesn't automatically become whataboutism.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#386

Post by allthenews »

jonathanyc wrote: post #284
allthenews wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are None of this detracts from the fact that these laws are ultimately relatively clear in their restrictions, compared to China's social score. Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties. Sure, I recognize that v…

I think the Chinese “social credit” system described here is pretty horrible. But your support of the American system drastically misses the mark. A good summary is the ACLU’s position paper on Race & the War on Drugs. https://www.aclu.org/other/race-war-drugs You also are repeating a common misconception when you state that “If you want to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding…

>It has been shown time and time again that black Americans are disproportionately arrested and sentenced.

And you also conveniently ignore that blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes.

Such discussions cannot be productive until we are willing to admit to both sides of the problem.

I do not deny that there are inequities in our justice system. However, disproportionate police presence in low income communities is not a symptom of racist targeting. The blackness of these individuals is incidental to the fact that low income communities have higher rates of all types of crime, especially violent offenses, and in any other context it would be obviously prudent to assign additional police forces to target high crime areas.

But this discussion has far surpassed the boundaries of what is acceptable on HN, and I will not comment in this thread further.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#388

Post by xfs »

Chaebixi wrote: post #370
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

> This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country Do you have a cite for this? I know you lose PRC citizenship when gaining another citizenship (and thus a foreign passport), but I was not under the impression that was true for "permanent residents" of other countries. You can be an C…

> the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport

This is false. There were rumors in May 2017 that some airports in China started to reject passports for Chinese citizens per some new internal regulations, so that is probably what was initially reported. As is always, the follow-up was never reported again: top aviation administration and public security department later clarified the law still allows using passports. The real reason for the few occasions of passport bans was because those few airports didn't have networked passports readers to verify it.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#389

Post by [deleted] »

Chaebixi wrote: post #381
DoreenMichele wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... It is also apparently mentioned in Hillary Clinton's memoirs that they had unpaid prison labor at the governor's mansion to save money .

>> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? > Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: Let's look up the definition of "slave": > a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; Prison labor is not slavery, this is clearly shown by the fact that you can't buy or sell prisoners on the open market . Prison labor is involuntary servitude . I…

[deleted]

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#390

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Chaebixi wrote: post #370
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

> This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country Do you have a cite for this? I know you lose PRC citizenship when gaining another citizenship (and thus a foreign passport), but I was not under the impression that was true for "permanent residents" of other countries. You can be an C…

I don’t have a citation, just personal experience of knowing people who were exactly in this situation. You don’t lose PRC citizenship when losing your hukou, you still qualify for a chinese passport. The policy in the 90s was that you had to turn in your ID card/hukou when going abroad to study and work, and there was no easy way to get it back. I don’t think that is true today, but it’s a reason why many older Chinese in the tech industry have citizenship but no hukou.

You can fly internally on a chinese passport. Again, because not all chinese citizens have or qualify for ID cards.

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