China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#331

Post by openasocket » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

AboutTheWhisles wrote: post #198

Are we sure this is dystopian enough? I love the idea of taking someone who might be marginalized and marginalizing them even further, but how can we make sure it is passed down through the generations to their family?

I remember reading about a proposal for China's social credit system, that it bases your score on the score of your friends (defined based on social media contacts, who you text, email, etc.). To discourage you from becoming friends with or remaining friends with someone who has done something wrong in the eyes of the Party. I have no idea if that was actually implemented, or if it's the same social credit system used here, but that's pretty damn dystopian.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#332

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #314

RobertRoberts wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are white and wealthy, then drug possession is against the law only in vague terms on paper. Not to discount your other points, but this is exactly how the Chinese system will work as well. (and already does in other respects from what I have heard and read) > What a bunch of bigoted hogwash. What did he say that was bigoted? (I am serious, by the actual definition [0], not the pejorative commonly thrown aro…

Black people are 12% of the population but over half those imprisoned for drug offenses, and GP's advice is, "If you wish to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding drug possession." I mean, that's bigotry. That's something I expect to read on the_donald.

I know we all have biases, but I reread the comment, and I didn't see any references to race. Is it really fair to apply a blanket percentage generically to any statement and equate it to race?

Bigotry [0], are you sure you are using this word correctly?

[0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#333

Post by mieseratte » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #323

mieseratte wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? My understanding is that work is optional, comes with a very small amount of compensation as incentive, but is otherwise non-compulsory. Is any US State or Federal prison running cotton plantations in Georgia with forced, uncompensated labor?

https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation...

To save the curious reader some Googling since the article doesn't seem to explain beyond "forced labor", one can be compelled to work under threat of solitary confinement at Angola so long as they are deemed medically able. Not quite full-on Chattel Slavery, it still is compensated and there is an "out," but that does seem borderline.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#334

Post by crankylinuxuser » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

Dan_Nguyen wrote: post #328

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

13th Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---------------- Slavery is ALLOWED if guilty of a crime. So go on ahead and keep espousing "rah rah USA". We're still in a slave country.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. eddieplan9 didn't claim that the US is a flawless, perfect nation. They're saying that despite the issues with the US (and I do agree that there are a lot), drawing conclusions between the US and China is a false equivalency and that things in China re: social freedom is much worse than here. Pointing out flaws with the US doesn't take away from his point.

> They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any hotel, etc.

--versus--

Real unabashed slavery on a finding of guilty. And companies can cut off your access to: planes, trains, internet, banking, telephones, ability to stay at any hotel. And the government can put you on a list stopping you from: planes, trains, drivers license, travel document, banking...

------------------------------

That's a fair comparison to make. And there is a good comparison to be made. Both are nation states. Social freedom is less in China for its citizens, but it's not the abject horrible pit of despair made out to be.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#335

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do.

This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it seems like these days it isn't necessary to turn in your hukou, but it was in the 90s). A previous colleague at MSRA was in this boat. It was troublesome for sure, but he could fly (even a Chinese can fly internally with a passport, as my wife did when we went from BJ to GZ), open bank accounts (like foreigners can), and so on. The only thing I know he had trouble with was permission to visit Taiwan, they couldn't handle a Chinese citizen without hukou, but that was it.

I'm as critical of the Chinese government as anyone, but bad information really doesn't help.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#336

Post by devy » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #176

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/thousands-chin... Meanwhile, back in the US, we've actually begun to recognize our mistake as a culture. Thus eight states have legalized marijuana, and another dozen will go that way soon. Decriminalization of drug…

> The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy.

No, you read it wrong. The crowd watched felons to be sentenced and then they were taken to the place for execution (private location not open to public display) immediately afterwards. So no public execution like what it was like in the ancient China. I know this because I read similar Chinese news in past.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#337

Post by elefanten » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #287

allthenews wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are None of this detracts from the fact that these laws are ultimately relatively clear in their restrictions, compared to China's social score. Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties. Sure, I recognize that v…

What a bunch of bigoted hogwash. How many times must the particulars of the system be documented and disseminated before these arguments go away completely? If you are white and wealthy, then drug possession is against the law only in vague terms on paper. It is not your practical reality. That's how the drug war has been made into the new jim crow. It's astonishingly simple, and very real. > If you wish to stay out…

I think you're doing more to poison the well of this conversation with the attitude and tone of this post. While I happen to agree more with your position than gp's, there is room for a discussion here. The accusations of bigotry and attempts to wish away different perspectives are counter-productive here. You did not make the point so much better than gp that you get to command them to exit the conversation.

GP says: 1) laws are clearly defined, 2) increased attention/punishment for repeat offenders != institutional inequity

You say: 1) laws are subjectively enforced, 2) white and/or rich people don't suffer the same consequences

Note that neither of your points are necessarily responsive to or mutually exclusive with gp's.

But your appeal to the youth who might be reading this was just over the top.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#338

Post by openasocket » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

otherview wrote: post #116

This ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI ) came out almost 3 years ago..

I was about to discuss the same thing! I haven't been able to find other documentation about it, whether it was actually implemented, or if it applies to this kind of restrictions. But that has really stood out in my mind as one of the most outrageously dystopian concepts

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#339

Post by PurpleBoxDragon » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #318

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

13th Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---------------- Slavery is ALLOWED if guilty of a crime. So go on ahead and keep espousing "rah rah USA". We're still in a slave country.

Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? My understanding is that work is optional, comes with a very small amount of compensation as incentive, but is otherwise non-compulsory. Is any US State or Federal prison running cotton plantations in Georgia with forced, uncompensated labor?

>My understanding is that work is optional

Its officially optional on paper, but in practice it can be held against you and result in worse treatment and longer prison time (such as being used against you in parole hearings). Also, slavery doesn't require being used for labor. While most slavery is for some economic gain to the slave holder, it isn't a required component.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#340

Post by dgreensp » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #313

hosh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political systems were deeply integrated with philosophical and religious streams, all braided together for at least several thousand years. As I mentioned elsewhere, this system is not new or novel in concept. Confucian ideals see people as animals on their way to being human. The cultivation of the "superior person" requires education and much socialization. This isn't what people in America should be concerned abo…

> The Chinese don't come across as complacent, though I often get that sense of complacency from the Western perspective. No they aren't, by any means. The autocracy seems to be a serious problem, but just the rate of growth and the clear determination and dedication to progress is breathtaking. There is also something refreshing about a culture that isn't mired in stupid questions about abortion, contraception, vacc…

Well I think it’s a difference in government, whatever the culture is. The government is not polling the people to decide whether or not to act in accord with the facts according to scientific consensus, it is just doing so.