China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#461

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #459

emodendroket wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that you committed a crime, landed yourself in jail, are not the property of the state, and have a finite term to serve. Sounds like a big difference to me.

Historically, that was at times abused by simply creating a lot of laws you could wantonly charge black people with breaking. But even setting that aside, we are simply calling slavery (or, at best, indentured servitude) an appropriate punishment for crime, not describing some phenomenon wholly different in kind.

Consider the text of the Thirteenth Amendment. It specifically exempts prison labor from its prohibition on slavery.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#462

Post by wallace_f » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:09 AM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #39

jsonne wrote: post #11

China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be clear people should be called out for big…

>people should be called out Anyone can be doxxed in the way you describe--harassed, slandered--for any reason, and a lot of people have been for terrible reasons. This thing has nothing to do with justice against idiots or hateful people. There are already courts, professional organizations, etc for that. It's nothing more than a disgusting, immature, backwards trend that has become an opportunity for hateful people…

The people downvoting might want to look into incidents such as Gamergate to see what I mean

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#463

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:17 AM UTC

Sangermaine wrote: post #429

stcredzero wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. Thank goodness. However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. The difference is primarily that in the west, the people who would do this, don't yet have 100% coverage over society.

>However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.

Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant.

I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot of people who will wield institutional power to engage in censorship. There are entire academic fields where professors and researchers are fearful of discussing their findings in the mainstream, because they can be castigated for doing so. There are large numbers of people who will use physical violence as a means of political coercion, and there are many, many people who will give their tacit approval of this.

A lot of people in the West find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. A lot of people in the West find satisfaction in exercising repugnant authoritarianism.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#464

Post by junnan » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

echevil wrote: post #180

If the author of this article has read the original announcement from either Chinese government or various sources from China, they'll know the so called "people with bad social credit" that'll get these restrictions is defined very clearly, and yet it mentioned only a tiny bit of it in very misleading way. Many of the actions described in the definition would put you in jail in US. Whether they're intentionally misl…

Finally an original source. I was wondering what the original text of "once untrustworthy, always restricted" would be. I think a more accurate translation should be "untrustworthy here, restricted everywhere".

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#465

Post by rqs » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

> Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles?

CCP currently cannot monitoring all foreign websites, so (currently) I don't think people will be hassled because of few archived comments on HM. But who knows, that may change in the future, and somebody may report you just like what people did during Cultural Revolution[0]. So, keep yourself anonymous under another name is always important.

In China, domestic websites are required by law to verify you and record your true personal identity (Phone number for example) when you trying to post anything on it, so you can't be anonymous. When I using that kind of website, I never do anything sensitive (Or even post anything useful).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#466

Post by astronautjones » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:29 AM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #437

newnewpdro wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.

Toys R Us just said yesterday that one of the major causes of their bankruptcy was a decline in birth rates.

their bankruptcy is 100% due to their leveraged buyout

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#467

Post by gus_massa » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:34 AM UTC

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

> The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical ...

Just assume that a few seconds after you post a comment Google, Bing, Facebook and a few other major Internet sites have scrapped your comment and are analyzing it.

And there a few aggregators that repeat the HN content and alternative UI for HN.

And some users make a local copy to run some statistics or detect dupes or just for curiosity. Some moron even made a Chrome extension to show the deleted and edited comments in HN.

And assume that the spy agencies of the major countries are making a nice backup of all your comments.

So after pressing the send button, just assume that there are 30 copies of your comment floating around.

A delete button only deletes one of them. The idea of Tweeter that you can delete a tweet and everybody really delete it is hilarious. Just assume the there is no "delete" button, it's just a "hide" button.

"Deleting" a comment is useful against a clueless neighbor that hates you because your dog barks too much. If a country with nukes hates you, they probably have the technology to save a copy of the "deleted" comment.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#468

Post by jxramos » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

So if one's social credit score goes too low would they allow you emigrate to another country?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#469

Post by mrhappyunhappy » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #249

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

That is a terrible comparison. Social credit is more like a credit report or score than something criminal.

Yeah if your credit report restricted you from flying...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#470

Post by allthenews » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

jonathanyc wrote: post #456

allthenews wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You equate driving cars and living on superfund sites with consuming illicit substances and wilfully committing violent acts, and then have the audacity to call someone else's contribution juvenile? Does personal responsibility exist in your ivory tower? What sort of convoluted logic could possibly drive you to equate necessities of life, or constraints of circumstance, with such antisocial choices? We're talking abo…

> What sort of convoluted logic could possibly drive you to equate necessities of life, or constraints of circumstance, with such antisocial choices? That you consider all drug use “antisocial” is revealing; that you think the need to use a car would exert more pressure on the average person than an environment which encourages drug use from a young age is telling. Your use of the term “ivory tower” is ironic when yo…

Perhaps you should be more concerned about the actual discussion, rather than forcing caricatures onto those who have opinions you do not agree with. How predictable that you ignored my reference to violent crime.

The only thing here that is telling is the desperation in your babble to paint people as bigots, strawmanning about foul language, single drops, and other such nonsense.

>suspect that you are trying to bring another argument into this discussion Perhaps in future comments you should spend less time suspecting, and more time actually reading the posts you reply to.

For the record, I do not believe that responsible drug use is antisocial, and I deliberately made my comment ambiguous, as I expect you to ignore the parts that were inconvenient to your narrative, as you have done.