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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#451

Post by emodendroket »

Chaebixi wrote: post #398
dragonwriter wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? Yes, and it is precisely the reason the US is one of the few eligible countries not to have ratified the main current treaty against slavery, the ILO Forced Labor Convention. > My understanding is that work is optional Prison labor is generally mandatory for able-bodied prisoners in the federal system, and this is true in some sta…

Note: this topic is a horrible derail from the OP. >> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? >Yes, and it is precisely the reason the US is one of the few eligible countries not to have ratified the main current treaty against slavery, the ILO Forced Labor Convention. That's false. Involuntary servitude is not slavery. Here's the definition of slave: > a person who is th…

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#452

Post by emodendroket »

Chaebixi wrote: post #381
DoreenMichele wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... It is also apparently mentioned in Hillary Clinton's memoirs that they had unpaid prison labor at the governor's mansion to save money .

>> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? > Yes, and there are plenty of articles about it. For example: Let's look up the definition of "slave": > a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; Prison labor is not slavery, this is clearly shown by the fact that you can't buy or sell prisoners on the open market . Prison labor is involuntary servitude . I…

Let's imagine an alternate history where, before the Civil War, they made a law that said you could no longer buy and sell your slaves, but you could still keep them on your property and make them labor for you. Has slavery been abolished? I'd say no, not in any meaningful sense.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#453

Post by coliveira »

Reedx wrote: post #183
heedlessly2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because if black people get accused of a crime, most people believe they actually committed it. If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt

> If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime. So to be surprised by that is understandable. Take color and class out of it, you need only compare "man accused of crime" vs "woman acc…

This is the very definition of prejudice. If a person is black, or from lower income classes, it doesn't make them fundamentally different from other people. White people can be murderers as much as any other group. Your "common sense" is just a recipe for institutionalized racism.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#454

Post by daveFNbuck »

ufo wrote: post #159
daveFNbuck wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Don't watch S1E1 1!) People always say that but it's one of the most compelling episodes.

I think telling people to avoid S1E1 is counterproductive if the alternative is to start with S1E2. I always thought that one was even more graphically disturbing.

S1E2 does at least capture the spirit of the show a lot better. If you have trouble with that one, you probably won't like the show.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#455

Post by seanmcdirmid »

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

I might be rejected for a chinese visa someday, but that will just be a canary in the coal mine, I guess.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#456

Post by jonathanyc »

allthenews wrote: post #450
jonathanyc wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your use of the term “soapboxing” to describe what was reasonable argument until your appearance and the bizarre thought-terminating cliché that is your fear of the word “systemic” don’t inspire confidence in me that you are here in good faith. I notice your account is also relatively new. Nonetheless, consider this after rereading the GP’s comment. If a doctor told two patients that they could avoid getting cancer b…

You equate driving cars and living on superfund sites with consuming illicit substances and wilfully committing violent acts, and then have the audacity to call someone else's contribution juvenile? Does personal responsibility exist in your ivory tower? What sort of convoluted logic could possibly drive you to equate necessities of life, or constraints of circumstance, with such antisocial choices? We're talking abo…

> What sort of convoluted logic could possibly drive you to equate necessities of life, or constraints of circumstance, with such antisocial choices?

That you consider all drug use “antisocial” is revealing; that you think the need to use a car would exert more pressure on the average person than an environment which encourages drug use from a young age is telling.

Your use of the term “ivory tower” is ironic when your assumptions are based on a kind of life that many Americans do not inhabit.

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. I would argue that most drug use is not a good idea. I think environments that encourage people to make bad decisions should be repaired. But to argue that “just one drop” of bad decision making justifies massively unfair treatment is an argument that is as intellectually demeaning as it is dangerously naive.

Would you argue in favor of a law that puts people in jail for doing something “antisocial” like using bad language, and that is predominately enforced against people of a particular race? No one needs to use foul language, but having done so does not give us carte blanche to hate.

As my final comment, your unprompted use of the term “ivory tower” and your ominous reference to “unpleasant implications” regarding race suspect that you are trying to bring another argument into this discussion in which I have no interest. This is my final reply.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#457

Post by door3 »

ygaf wrote: post #374
jonathanyc wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Chinese “social credit” system described here is pretty horrible. But your support of the American system drastically misses the mark. A good summary is the ACLU’s position paper on Race & the War on Drugs. https://www.aclu.org/other/race-war-drugs You also are repeating a common misconception when you state that “If you want to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding…

>You also are repeating a common misconception when It's a misconception that you could avoid being in the felon caste by not breaking laws? That's what he said. He didn't say "if you want to gamble with not joining the felon caste, you have fair odds". Lots of soapboxing ITT, threads should decapitate at the first post with 'systemic' in.

The united states prison system is designed to systematically incarcerate and disempower black americans. It has nothing to do with "breaking laws". Incarceration is not correlated with crime rate, and nearly everyone breaks laws, but a small segment of the population is incarcerated to a large degree (black men).

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#458

Post by door3 »

allthenews wrote: post #386
jonathanyc wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Chinese “social credit” system described here is pretty horrible. But your support of the American system drastically misses the mark. A good summary is the ACLU’s position paper on Race & the War on Drugs. https://www.aclu.org/other/race-war-drugs You also are repeating a common misconception when you state that “If you want to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding…

>It has been shown time and time again that black Americans are disproportionately arrested and sentenced. And you also conveniently ignore that blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes. Such discussions cannot be productive until we are willing to admit to both sides of the problem. I do not deny that there are inequities in our justice system. However, disproportionate police presence in l…

>blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes.

This is a racist lie. If you control for socioeconomic factors, the difference totally vanishes.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#459

Post by EpicEng »

emodendroket wrote: post #451
Chaebixi wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: this topic is a horrible derail from the OP. >> Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? >Yes, and it is precisely the reason the US is one of the few eligible countries not to have ratified the main current treaty against slavery, the ILO Forced Labor Convention. That's false. Involuntary servitude is not slavery. Here's the definition of slave: > a person who is th…

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that you committed a crime, landed yourself in jail, are not the property of the state, and have a finite term to serve. Sounds like a big difference to me.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#460

Post by sumedh »

amphibian87 wrote: post #435
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Communist Party leadership has a strong incentive to promote growth But Xi Jinping does not.

Oh, on the contrary. His legitimacy is directly related to his ability to have stability, and that stability comes from employment. When you are a state-run economy, you make sure everyone is employed, even if it's not profitable, because that's how you keep them from going all Tienamen Square on the leadership. So they spend a lot, and they loan a ton, to prop up their growth numbers. The CCP subsidizes growth by du…

> and that stability comes from employment.

and suppressing freedom of expression

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