China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#411

Post by hosh » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #260

hosh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…

I think this relates more to Chinese Legalism than Confucian ideals. This social credit is just what the "men of methods" would prescribe replace aristocracy with a bureaucracy. You get automatic four year ban for certain services if social credit drops below certain level.

Hmmm. I think you are right. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#412

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Quite.

Beware creating a cohort with nothing left to lose.

https://suntzusaid.com/book/8/2

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#413

Post by Chaebixi » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #402

Chaebixi wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines. That's just the sales pitch to make it seem reasonable and positive to the average person. It's naive to think that this social credit system won't have a political component. Here are some descriptions of some current pilot programs that make that much clearer: ht…

Sesame Credit is fairly extreme, but it's completely separate from China's social credit system (which doesn't exist yet). Sesame Credit is run by Alibaba, a private company, and there's no way China wants them to have that much power.

> Sesame Credit is run by Alibaba, a private company, and there's no way China wants them to have that much power.

That's true, but I see no reason for the government system to take a more moderate approach.

I don't really buy that Alibaba would have too much power, either. I'm pretty sure the CCP could swat it down pretty easily if it gets too uppity.

> China's social credit system (which doesn't exist yet)

My understanding is that things like Sesame credit are much like pilot projects -- if their ideas work to the CCP's liking, they'll make it into the government system.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#414

Post by walterbell » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:15 PM UTC

Chaebixi wrote: post #392

sosilkj wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False equivalency is a tool that's deployed often on HN these days to steer (or derail) threads. I assume it's due in part to PR/propaganda teams working to manage/manipulate sentiment.

It certainly feels like that, but I doubt this is the direct result of modern propaganda teams. What I think is more likely is the propagandists were so successful decades ago that their whataboutist memes got so integrated into the American/English discourse that many people repeat them unthinkingly.

Take a look at Grassroots for Hire, https://www.amazon.com/Grassroots-Hire-Consultants-American-...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#415

Post by newnewpdro » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #408

newnewpdro wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be interesting to see what the US resembles when its numbers exceed 1 billion people. China in many ways is simply setting the precedent now, how the US follows remains to be seen.

US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9... https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-... https://vimeo.com/79878808

It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#416

Post by Muromec » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:21 PM UTC

Chaebixi wrote: post #364

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

> I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. It's terrible, it's even happening directly in the replies do you. This whole post has been almost totally derailed by whataboutism, and a lot of it is literally textbook : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism > The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practic…

>whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic"

It's not a tactic, it's rooted in traditional Russian law and stems from belief that you can't judge others while breaking exact same principle, or generally being immoral yourself. So pointing out that other party is lynching negroes is legit defense from some accusations from that party.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#417

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

newnewpdro wrote: post #415

toomuchtodo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9... https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-... https://vimeo.com/79878808

It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.

[deleted]

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#418

Post by eggpy » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #406

eggpy wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think someone should be punished forever. I think most people agree that our criminal justice system needs a major overhaul. Unfortunately "justice" seems to focus more on punishment rather than rehabilitation. As a cause of this, recidivism is rather high. I don't care about personal narcotics use, but a felony regarding minor possession is very different then a violent felony. Also I know a people can c…

I'm glad you raised the objection with regards to recidivism. Let me offer two things: First, what about the 30% some-odd folks who aren't recidivist? The individual should be smothered over the statistic of the many, because he's in a set of individuals (felons) and there's 70% of this set that repeats? How fair is that. Secondly, if you're barred from professional or high-paying work because everywhere you go, you…

I'm really not trying to argue with you. I'm not making any broad sweeping statements like "I WILL NOT HIRE A FELON". Someone could have a criminal record and be a decent person, just as someone without a criminal record could be a terrible person. Hiring good employees is hard enough. It's not just about raw skill or ability or determination, when hiring you have to make a judgement call about that person. Can you work with this person? Is this a good investment on behalf of the business? Like I take someone's employment history into consideration, I don't think criminal history is irrelevant.

I'm 100% sure this negatively impacts the ability for those with records to get jobs. That really, really sucks for them. And like you mentioned, of course that would contribute to recidivism. Who's going to hire a thief to work unsupervised where they could just steal stuff again? That might be an unfair characterization, but I'd like to talk to the candidate about that and see if _I_ believed they were not going to steal my shit. If someone has a litany of drug convictions, I'd probably be hesitant to assume they were totally trustworthy to show up to work every day. But I'd like to talk to them about it. I guess your position is "it's none of your business", and you could be right about that.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#419

Post by jonathanyc » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

ygaf wrote: post #374

jonathanyc wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Chinese “social credit” system described here is pretty horrible. But your support of the American system drastically misses the mark. A good summary is the ACLU’s position paper on Race & the War on Drugs. https://www.aclu.org/other/race-war-drugs You also are repeating a common misconception when you state that “If you want to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding…

>You also are repeating a common misconception when It's a misconception that you could avoid being in the felon caste by not breaking laws? That's what he said. He didn't say "if you want to gamble with not joining the felon caste, you have fair odds". Lots of soapboxing ITT, threads should decapitate at the first post with 'systemic' in.

Your use of the term “soapboxing” to describe what was reasonable argument until your appearance and the bizarre thought-terminating cliché that is your fear of the word “systemic” don’t inspire confidence in me that you are here in good faith. I notice your account is also relatively new.

Nonetheless, consider this after rereading the GP’s comment. If a doctor told two patients that they could avoid getting cancer by not exposing themselves to carcinogens, knowing that one somehow unknowingly lives on a Superfund site, but deciding to purposefully neglect to mention the risk this entails, would you say the doctor was presenting one patient an incorrect understanding of the issue at hand?

Likewise, if a car manufacturer found a problem with one of their models and decided to notify the US about this by saying “you can avoid harm from the problem by not driving cars,” I would say that thinking that this is not “somehow unfair,” as the GP writes, would be a misconception, as I wrote.

The sort of juvenile discussion you are attempting to bring to this conversation is not really appropriate for HN.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#420

Post by contingencies » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

avcdsuia wrote: post #66

Shenzhen gov are using facial recognition to detect pedestrians running through the red light[0]. Their even release high quality pictures without mosaic in the first version, just a few days ago. [0] https://www.stc.gov.cn/facei/

The address is 新洲莲花路口东侧 (the east side of the intersection between Xinzhou Lu and Lianhua Lu). I sort of want to go down there and see if I can't photobomb a jaywalking picture :) https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lian+Hua+Lu,+FuTian+CBD,+F...

Note that the facial ID obviously doesn't work very well as they are only posting the affirmative matches. Every intersection in China has far more than two jaywalkers per day.