I get that it's super anecdotal to mention this, but this idea sounds a lot like the worst oppressive, sadness-inducing systems I read about in school books, the purpose of which was literally to save people from thinking stuff like this up again.
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
401–410 of 602 posts
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines.
> According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines. That's just the sales pitch to make it seem reasonable and positive to the average person. It's naive to think that this social credit system won't have a political component. Here are some descriptions of some current pilot programs that make that much clearer: ht…
Sesame Credit is fairly extreme, but it's completely separate from China's social credit system (which doesn't exist yet). Sesame Credit is run by Alibaba, a private company, and there's no way China wants them to have that much power.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#403I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
It's been fashionable for a while to bash the top dog. No, the US isn't perfect, but how can you equate it to the shit china does day in and out.
It will be interesting to see what the US resembles when its numbers exceed 1 billion people. China in many ways is simply setting the precedent now, how the US follows remains to be seen.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#404clicked on the comments for the link here just to see all the "it's essentially the same thing here in the US!" posts and I was not disappointed. (or I was, depending on how you look at it)
So why are the analogies others have made not valid? (although I haven't found anyone saying it's "essentially the same thing")
It's pure whataboutism that only serves to totally distract attention away from this newly-designed Chinese policy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
> Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.
> The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national ideology". Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to criticism, And you are lynching Negroes, as a "classic" example of the tactic.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#405To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
You can extend this metaphor to employment and job performance as well, as explored by Marshall Brain in his short story "Manna" [0]: > You can imagine what would happen. Manna fires you because you don't show up for work a couple times. Now you try to go get a job somewhere else. No other Manna system is going to hire you. There had always been an implicit threat in the American economy -- "if you do not have a job,…
I'm unsure Manna is the best anti-social-credit parable, given that one of the prerequisites for being a member of its utopia is having the government AIs surveil you 24/7 through a brainstem implant. (http://marshallbrain.com/manna7.htm, search for "They watch everything?")
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#406Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except criminal background checks don't just aim at murderers and rapists. Felonies are often a drug-related, and often in states with stricter laws. And no, it's not your business if a job candidate got caught with a joint or even something worse years ago, on his own leisure time, or got a DUI in college a decade ago. Why should that continue to be allowed to be your business, if you hire (for instance) a programme…
No, I don't think someone should be punished forever. I think most people agree that our criminal justice system needs a major overhaul. Unfortunately "justice" seems to focus more on punishment rather than rehabilitation. As a cause of this, recidivism is rather high. I don't care about personal narcotics use, but a felony regarding minor possession is very different then a violent felony. Also I know a people can c…
I'm glad you raised the objection with regards to recidivism. Let me offer two things:
First, what about the 30% some-odd folks who aren't recidivist? The individual should be smothered over the statistic of the many, because he's in a set of individuals (felons) and there's 70% of this set that repeats? How fair is that.
Secondly, if you're barred from professional or high-paying work because everywhere you go, you fail a criminal background check... Doesn't that mean you're MORE likely to return to crime? I don't know what it's like to have been a street criminal, but I can imagine I'd be a lot more likely to steal if no one hired me because of a past thing I did (like stealing). I'd say, the system is against me, it's corrupt and so forth, so screw it.
That last sentiment I described ("the system is corrupt anyway, it's stacked against me so screw it") is an attitude I see a lot in the (very large) US city where I live, and I know a number of people with criminal histories. They'll never end up in a cubicle farm making 180K writing code, that's for sure.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#407Are we sure this is dystopian enough? I love the idea of taking someone who might be marginalized and marginalizing them even further, but how can we make sure it is passed down through the generations to their family?
I remember reading about a proposal for China's social credit system, that it bases your score on the score of your friends (defined based on social media contacts, who you text, email, etc.). To discourage you from becoming friends with or remaining friends with someone who has done something wrong in the eyes of the Party. I have no idea if that was actually implemented, or if it's the same social credit system use…
They have some corporation-run social credit pilot projects that apparently look at purchases and social media activity. No doubt the government-run program will get that data as well.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's been fashionable for a while to bash the top dog. No, the US isn't perfect, but how can you equate it to the shit china does day in and out.
It will be interesting to see what the US resembles when its numbers exceed 1 billion people. China in many ways is simply setting the precedent now, how the US follows remains to be seen.
US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term.
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9...
https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-...
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#409I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
Not an excuse at all.
I believe the negative sentiment towards the NSA, Facebook, Amazon and Google have to do with the fact that activities like collecting and storing sensitive information on individuals brings Western society one step closer to the situation in China. The capability now exists and a historic record about an individuals behaviour can be summoned easily.
What scares me is the idea of laws you're breaking which don't even exist yet, scary stuff.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#410I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…
Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles?
The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed.
It would be truly surprising if HN history doesn't eventually play a key role in someone being imprisoned or executed due to having expressed views that a country, religion or other organization finds objectionable.