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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#271

Post by allthenews »

sangnoir wrote: post #234
_bxg1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to imply that the American system is good, but at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. With the "social credit system" things are much more fluid and subjective, so there's going to be a much greater culture of fear surrounding it. Granted, we have the same problems with our own credit system, but at least ours only applies to and is affected by finances. The…

> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions You would think that, but research shows systemic biases in the justice system throughout the entire funnel: from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are. This is a sign the actions are not well-defined, and quite subjective.

>from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are

None of this detracts from the fact that these laws are ultimately relatively clear in their restrictions, compared to China's social score.

Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties.

Sure, I recognize that very few of us are perfectly law abiding citizens. But I have trouble with the notion that heavier police presence, and heavier sentencing for repeat offenders, are somehow unfair phenomena, and these alleged transgressions far too often are lumped together with actual institutional inequity.

In other words, one must not conflate subjectivity in sentencing and policing with some kind of ingrained, institutional caste system, so long as laws are followed as written. If you wish to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding drug possession. If you do not agree with such laws, work to change them.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#273

Post by nothis »

moufestaphio wrote: post #209
woolvalley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also bring up japan as a counter-example. It's even safer and cleaner & it's still a democracy!

Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership.. And has only really had once party in power throughout the history of its democracy (like 3 years or so without): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japa... Not sure its the best counter example

> Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership..

So has all of Europe, though.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#274

Post by jakeogh »

Aunche wrote: post #267
_bxg1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to imply that the American system is good, but at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. With the "social credit system" things are much more fluid and subjective, so there's going to be a much greater culture of fear surrounding it. Granted, we have the same problems with our own credit system, but at least ours only applies to and is affected by finances. The…

> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines.

"not paying fines" is about as open and fluid as it gets.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#275

Post by eggpy »

mancerayder wrote: post #257
SamReidHughes wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think what, the courts should be secret?

Criminal background checks should be limited with regards to this criteria considered for employment.

I feel like "violent murderer and/or rapist" is something Id like to know about when considering hiring someone.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#276

Post by IncRnd »

jdietrich wrote: post #208
DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

Virginia and New Jersey have felony larceny thresholds of $200; Massachusetts draws the line at $250. Arizona, Oklahoma and Tennessee all class possession of half an ounce of marijuana as a felony. Several states make possession of any amount within proximity of a school, church or park a felony. There are countless examples of misdemeanour possession being trumped-up to felony possession with intent based on very fl…

I think you're missing the overall point. It doesn't matter whether the demarcation is $200, $250, or $3000 between a misdemeanor and a felony. It is more important that a person has trafficked in stolen goods. For that reason, lowering the limit of a misdemeanor is far more likely than raising it.

Besides, different states have different laws. This isn't arbitrary but how our country was designed to work.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#277

Post by CompelTechnic »

kiteracer wrote: post #152
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

You can extend this metaphor to employment and job performance as well, as explored by Marshall Brain in his short story "Manna" [0]: > You can imagine what would happen. Manna fires you because you don't show up for work a couple times. Now you try to go get a job somewhere else. No other Manna system is going to hire you. There had always been an implicit threat in the American economy -- "if you do not have a job,…

Thanks for that link. Manna was an amazing read.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#278

Post by ithkuil »

posterboy wrote: post #57
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

The caste system to me means to put people in the position of a caste on purpose. Just like the younger brothers in feudal europe were second class ... so a prince might just kill his older brother. Or literally enslaving countries wholesale as untouchables (the name being an improvement over beatables, I guess). I have a hunch that caste is cognate with castrate, but it's inexplicably "uncertain" as many such terrib…

It comes from "chaste" (Latin castus) through an intermediate form meaning pure/non-mixed

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#279

Post by Aunche »

jakeogh wrote: post #274
Aunche wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions. According to the article, the actions described seem like discrete and well-defined like giving false information about terrorism, and not paying fines.

"not paying fines" is about as open and fluid as it gets.

How is that open and fluid? Did you verify it by reading the law or did you just assume Big Scary China will do bad things? Lots of states in the US will suspend your driver's license for failing to pay non-traffic-related fines.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#280

Post by throwawayjava »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #264
throwawayjava wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I suppose it's possible that a professor with controversial opinions ended up on a no-fly list for some reason completely unrelated to his politics. Occam's razor, though... There are other abuses that we have concrete evidence of. E.g., refusing the cooperate with the FBI. ( https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/laws... ). Hell, up until 2005, the TSA used CREDIT SCORES as a component in decidin…

Yes, Occam's razor. Professors tend to hold controversial opinions. Random people will end up on the no-fly list. Sooner or later, that random person will be a professor with controversial opinions.

https://theintercept.com/document/2014/07/23/march-2013-watc...

DHS does not use social media posts alone to place someone on watch lists, but they are incorporated into predictive assessments. Given two people who are otherwise equivalent, the one with public stated controvsial opinions IS more likely to end up on a no-fly list. By the govt's own admission.

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