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'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

theguardian.com

71–80 of 88 posts

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#71
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be callous, but if aren't already paying $3500/mo then you aren't paying NYC rents. If Amazon moves in, they'll just build another half dozen highrise apartments and rates will stay about the same. NCR, a new Tech tower, perhaps something new around BellSouth, Metlife at 17th street... Atlanta has almost twice as many people as Seattle, and unlike a sleepy coffee town has always been dominated by corporate cul…

Apartments.com lists 4098 1 bedroom apartments in Manhattan alone in my rent range, $2-2.5k/month. All over the island. They might not be as nice as my swanky high rise, but I consider it to be comparable. Certainly whenever someone asks me how much I'm paying at my current place their eyes bug out.

They might not be as nice as my swanky high rise

I mean... this isn’t how price comparisons work? You can rent a studio on Peachtree in Midtown for $1,000 a month if it isn’t “swanky”. It probably has the same square footage as that $2,500 “1 bedroom” in Manhattan. Living in a city isn’t cheap.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#72
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protesters point (as stated in the article) is that Amazon is going to pick the city that best meets their (physical, if you will) needs regardless of tax breaks. So for the winning city : without tax breaks you'll still win, but will also keep the extra tax revenue Amazon will generate (which you'll need because of the oversized burden they create).

But surly Amazon won't decide the city based solely on just their physical needs. Say city A is technically the best, but offers no tax breaks. City B is just slightly behind city A, but offers attractive tax breaks. Wouldn't that cause Amazon to seriously consider city B?

Just how attractive? 5B?

For a company that does 177.87B in sales each year?

I think they would pick the structurally best city regardless. They just also want gravy from it first.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very Anglo point of view. In other parts of the world the relationship is much more antagonistic than you would expect. The state has to get its money from somewhere, and the locals rarely have much of it. The state is often heavily intertwined with industry, through massive regulation and, too often, good old-fashioned corruption. If the state thinks it can get away with nationalizing a vital industry conc…

Not sure it's an Anglo view. The State has a monopoly on force and regulation, allowing for the governing of degrees of Capitalism. Capitalism has no such control over the State.

The English innovated on this with a strong legal system protecting the nobles from the depredations of the State. This was only possible because the English was separated from the rest of the continent so it wasn't ever seriously threatened.

Every other country in Europe progressed without these innovations and as such they're always only a few steps away from fascism / dictatorship. Except the Dutch. The Dutch were reasonably well protected and they also created a commercial empire. The US Constitution is modeled after the Dutch one.

The difference is that the English weren't able to build their commercial empire until after the legal reforms took place, while the Dutch couldn't make their legal reforms until after they built their commercial empire.

No such legal reforms exist in other nations. These laws are instrumental in allowing a class structure other than ruling class-peasants. Other countries can vary in the amount of wealth they can spread amongst their peasants, but the peasants don't really participate in the governing.

The big caveat here is France. The French mechanism for making demands on the ruling class is social unrest. Nothing like a good French riot. The spectre of a second French Revolution scares the everloving crap out of the rulers and that forces them to the negotiating table. This has the unfortunate effect of making them uniquely vulnerable to fascism. But enterprise in France is just as state-intertwined as it is everywhere else, because there aren't any strong institutions there to counteract it.

Only in Anglo countries can industry and state compete as equals. When industry bands together and cooperates, as we used to call monopoly / cartel, only a coordinated state response can check it. This is enshrined in law and a bedrock feature that our capitalistic society relies on for its competitiveness.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#74
post #37

"By signing, you accept Change.org’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, and agree to receive occasional emails about campaigns on Change.org . You can unsubscribe at any time." I support the campaign but that one sentence prevented me from signing. I've made that mistake before and the deluge of emails I received from "partners" was astonishing.

I hear you. I've made it my mission to reduce physical mailbox clutter and it amazes me how many of them take my contact request as permission to sign me up for their email spam...

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, that piece is missing from the article. And the answer to that question is that a tax break is effectively a form of financing, so why not let Amazon (or other major corporations) be on the hook for the note? Even when that financing is paid by future tax revenues, every tax payer in the region will sign up involuntarily for a little piece of that debt. For smaller projects, this incentive mechanism makes se…

> However, HQ2 will create an enormous "supply chain pull" on every aspect of government, and those costs are impossible to accurately assess. Rather than trying to account for the supply chain pull as you noted, I wish cities and states would standardize upon an open source formatting and presentation of the data in their accounting systems. Many competing analyses of costs to various jurisdictions can then arise fr…

Something I've been wondering about for a while now... Would it be possible to train an algorithm to identify similar characteristics of data from different schema? Looking at the actual data, I mean, and inferring a translation table or the like?

I have a background in data engineering and don't really know where I'd get started. But if you could figure out a way to throw differently schema'd data at an algorithm and have it try to create a universal schema, you'd be wealthy.

There would be a ton of challenges, but the problem you described seems like a societally valuable one to solve.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure it's an Anglo view. The State has a monopoly on force and regulation, allowing for the governing of degrees of Capitalism. Capitalism has no such control over the State.

The English innovated on this with a strong legal system protecting the nobles from the depredations of the State. This was only possible because the English was separated from the rest of the continent so it wasn't ever seriously threatened. Every other country in Europe progressed without these innovations and as such they're always only a few steps away from fascism / dictatorship. Except the Dutch. The Dutch were…

So by virtue of being English/Dutch descended they have a better system. The leaps in your logic are all over the place.

How is France "uniquely vulnerable to fascism?

How do you think that having a response to monopolies enshrined in law makes it a "bedrock feature" of our society when the US has seemingly abandoned any serious enforcement of antitrust law?

How do you respond to the state and industries working together as in the case of regulatory capture or governments adding protections for companies like preventing state level governments preventing municipalities from forming their own ISPs?

Your whole post just reads as "us good, them bad" with no actual evidence on the results

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism doesn't really work unless it can fight on equal footing with the state. If the state can just clamp down however it wants on private enterprise, then eventually all private enterprise becomes state enterprise. See China. And there are US states with 0 income tax. And countries with very low income tax. Russia has 13% income tax, the state gets most of its income from its fascinating system of tributary ta…

Bullshit and hyperbole. There are various degrees of capitalism, and saying that if the state doesn't put corporations at its same level, eventually it'll become more or less like China, is pushing a certain type of agenda. Have a look at Europe, there's fully privatised states, and some that might be regarded wrongly, from an American point of view, as socialist, yet still actually capitalist in economic philosophy.

I don't see it as a struggle between state and industry per se, but rather as the difference between one type of aristocracy over another. I'm not sure what you mean by "fully privatised states."

Privatization effectively does two things. It exposes the health of the organization to the market, and it takes the control out of the hands of the ruling class. It is unclear how you could do that to an entire state. If you remove from it the ability to collect taxes, that would do the trick, but also effectively destroy the ability of the state to govern, making it no longer a state.

The closest analogue to this may be Somalia, which is effectively a medieval feudal regime that persisted into the 21st century. Somalia's national government has no real control over the country and can only cajole, never force. Somalia's federal government is playing a 'fake it til you make it game' which apparent when you see that their actual collected taxes is only 30% of what they say should be being collected. Customs were 68% of the entire government revenue in 2016.

Another "private government" is the Vatican, which sustains itself largely on donations from Catholics throughout the world. As there is nothing compelling Christians to donate, the Vatican is much more market-oriented than most states.

I have already gone over Russia's system of tributary taxation, but that's a voluntary system as well that the Russian state could not survive without in it's current form. It's estimated that by midcentury, the system will be replaced with a more conventional one. Putin's successor won't be as capable as he is in keeping the current order humming.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#78
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The English innovated on this with a strong legal system protecting the nobles from the depredations of the State. This was only possible because the English was separated from the rest of the continent so it wasn't ever seriously threatened. Every other country in Europe progressed without these innovations and as such they're always only a few steps away from fascism / dictatorship. Except the Dutch. The Dutch were…

So by virtue of being English/Dutch descended they have a better system. The leaps in your logic are all over the place. How is France "uniquely vulnerable to fascism? How do you think that having a response to monopolies enshrined in law makes it a "bedrock feature" of our society when the US has seemingly abandoned any serious enforcement of antitrust law? How do you respond to the state and industries working toge…

My original point is that capitalism has to operate on equal footing with the state if it is to thrive, otherwise it will be subsumed into the state at the convenience of said state.

> So by virtue of being English/Dutch descended they have a better system.

Sure. Systems persist through generations. You can still see remnants of the old French colonial government in Louisiana to this day. I don't understand why this should be a controversial statement. The British attitude towards commerce evolved over hundreds of years, and their colonies inherited it.

> How is France "uniquely vulnerable to fascism?

A poor choice of words, sorry. They're 'particularly vulnerable', not 'uniquely vulnerable'.

> How do you think that having a response to monopolies enshrined in law makes it a "bedrock feature" of our society when the US has seemingly abandoned any serious enforcement of antitrust law?

When it comes to very very large institutions with difficult-to-check amounts of power, then ordinary law fails to provide for one side. The antitrust regime in particular was fighting against Standard Oil, a conglomerate that deployed the sharpest legal minds in existence at that time to circumvent federal regulation. It was checked by Teddy Roosevelt, who led the charge to disrupt their operations so they could be brought back under state supervision.

Where law fails, individuals and/or mobs take over. The ability of those corrective agents to actually check power is the operative concept here.

As another example, the Magna Carta was rammed down the throat of the British Crown by the aristocracy, which was tired of seeing their concerns meddled with by the Crown for no good reason they could see. A full-on war had to be fought between the baronies and the Crown before the Carta could be accepted as a legitimate check on authority.

When making a power play, you're changing who gets to write the rules. The mark of a functioning society is when royals, elites and commoners can square off against each other without igniting a war. If they can't do that, then one swallows the other, usually the state consuming private enterprise.

Only robust national institutions can maintain the balance of power between entities. After the Carta was passed, the actual text of the charter quickly became obsolete, but the ideas that it represented, that the Crown cannot just do whatever it wants, became enshrined in the minds of the British. Without this innovation, private enterprise cannot flourish, except in a trickle-down fashion from the state. It's not really private anymore, it's 'at the pleasure of the state.'

My argument is that only the Anglosphere and the Dutch managed to evolve this institutions throughout history, in slightly different ways, and that all other countries try to ape the institutions, and fail to create robust ones. Because it goes farther than merely having a judiciary and constitution. The public themselves has to buy into the system, which is what makes the French public so scary to its lawmakers.

Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home

#79
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An article whose subject is literally about the political controversy around giving public tax money to private corporations, and quotes a variety of political action groups, not to mention city and state political leaders, doesn't qualify as "about politics"? The guidelines clearly state "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos o…

This is an article about how giant tech firms drive politics, and the guidelines state only that "most" articles about politics are not welcome. It is not a blanket ban and I think it's an interesting and relevant discussion to be having.

It's not about how "giant tech firms" drive politics, it's about how businesses drive politics. Lots and lots of businesses that are not "giant tech firms" impose themselves on the political process to receive tax credits.
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