What's missing from most articles (this one included) is any kind of analysis of whether tax breaks make sense for the states in question. It bothers me how it's presented as the state giving $5B of its own cash away to Amazon, as if that money could go to the homeless instead. Presumably there are ways to estimate the economic effects of 50,000 jobs + tax breaks. Is there a reason they're not mentioned?
'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
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Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#62Honestly, I think it should be illegal for a city or state to negotiate a tax break with a specific company. Sure, they can cut taxes across the board if they want, but everyone should get the same deal. I'm even for banning "backdoor" tax breaks that effectively only benefit one or two companies and were clearly targeted at them (I'm thinking of the Delta aviation fuel tax break, as an example), or sweetheart deals…
If you can't get the state to stop engaging in this, how are you going to get them to pass a law against it? Or not repeal the law the minute they want to do it again? The incentive for states to do this is a direct consequence of progressive taxation. If a company paid $1000 in taxes and got back >=$1000 in police protection (or whatever), and the government's relationship with every other taxpayer was of the same n…
This stuff usually happens at the state or local level, so a federal law (not sure about the constitutionality of that) or constitutional law (or judicial interpretation) seems like the right place for it.
Tax arbitrage is a problem, IMHO, and I do wish there were better ways to mitigate it. It does seem we're moving more towards a system with local taxes occur where the sales are made, and perhaps the same could be done with local income and business taxes. It would make things more complicated, but we have software and tax codes could also use some compensating simplification.
IMHO, tax policy is part of the political system, and in the interests of democracy, the political systems shouldn't be made to compete with each other in exploitable ways.
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#63What's missing from most articles (this one included) is any kind of analysis of whether tax breaks make sense for the states in question. It bothers me how it's presented as the state giving $5B of its own cash away to Amazon, as if that money could go to the homeless instead. Presumably there are ways to estimate the economic effects of 50,000 jobs + tax breaks. Is there a reason they're not mentioned?
Why couldn't it?
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#64What's missing from most articles (this one included) is any kind of analysis of whether tax breaks make sense for the states in question. It bothers me how it's presented as the state giving $5B of its own cash away to Amazon, as if that money could go to the homeless instead. Presumably there are ways to estimate the economic effects of 50,000 jobs + tax breaks. Is there a reason they're not mentioned?
Also it's not like the opposition to it is unreasonable, it probably will benefit the community but it would've been a lot better if Amazon didn't get the tax bonuses and since they were going to build the second HQ somewhere anyway. You have municipalities paying 5b$ for Amazon to do something it was going to do anyway so while the individual location is better off the system as a whole just lost 5b$ in taxes. This really plays into the current trend where Americans feel like these corporations really have outsized power in the US politically and use it to get what they want (e.g. taxes, laws, favorible labor contracts) and as average citizens we have little recourse to do anything about it.
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where does this fear come from? Atlanta is adding ~ 100k jobs every year, and HQ2 is projected to be ~ 5k per year for a decade. Developments adding a few thousand jobs are announced every other month. Anyone worried about rapid expansion and gentrification in Atlanta has been ignoring our reality for a long time.
I live in Midtown, paying NYC rents to live in a high rise. I was hopefully looking forward to a modest rent decrease once the half-dozen new buildings get done and start leasing. If Amazon moves in I worry I won't be able to rent here for less than $3k / month.
NCR, a new Tech tower, perhaps something new around BellSouth, Metlife at 17th street... Atlanta has almost twice as many people as Seattle, and unlike a sleepy coffee town has always been dominated by corporate culture. Even if Amazon moved their whole company here, it wouldn't change the city that much.
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it doesn't fit the narrative that amazon is evil / rich people are evil / gentrification / government kick backs. I would seriously doubt that any city would be offering this if they didn't believe that it would be net positive for their area. Between increases in property values (thereby increased taxes), number of high-income earners, and new spending from these people, they are likely to benefit from this…
> I would seriously doubt that any city would be offering this if they didn't believe that it would be net positive for their area. I would. What's good for a "city" is not necessarily good for the residents of that city. These are two totally different entities with their own wants and needs, that are not guaranteed to act in the others best interest. In fact, occasionally the incentives are so misaligned as to be p…
The idea of high-income earners driving up costs for everyone may be true as well. I don't have enough background other than anecdotal evidence to say one way or another though. Looking at price increases and any benefit changes to low income earners / low income migration from the area would be an interesting study once Amazon HQ2 gets off the ground.
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#67What's missing from most articles (this one included) is any kind of analysis of whether tax breaks make sense for the states in question. It bothers me how it's presented as the state giving $5B of its own cash away to Amazon, as if that money could go to the homeless instead. Presumably there are ways to estimate the economic effects of 50,000 jobs + tax breaks. Is there a reason they're not mentioned?
Because it doesn't fit the narrative that amazon is evil / rich people are evil / gentrification / government kick backs. I would seriously doubt that any city would be offering this if they didn't believe that it would be net positive for their area. Between increases in property values (thereby increased taxes), number of high-income earners, and new spending from these people, they are likely to benefit from this…
The assumption that political leaders invariably make decisions that are the best for the general public is not one borne out by evidence.
> It isn't this zero-sum game
Amazon is going to expand, right? Without a doubt, and regardless of what cities do, Amazon will expand. Therefore, cities offering tax breaks is just a transfer from the general public to the shareholders of Amazon. It's not zero-sum, it's negative sum, as far as the public is concerned. It's monopoly rent.
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#68Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
I live in Midtown, paying NYC rents to live in a high rise. I was hopefully looking forward to a modest rent decrease once the half-dozen new buildings get done and start leasing. If Amazon moves in I worry I won't be able to rent here for less than $3k / month.
Not to be callous, but if aren't already paying $3500/mo then you aren't paying NYC rents. If Amazon moves in, they'll just build another half dozen highrise apartments and rates will stay about the same. NCR, a new Tech tower, perhaps something new around BellSouth, Metlife at 17th street... Atlanta has almost twice as many people as Seattle, and unlike a sleepy coffee town has always been dominated by corporate cul…
Re: 'Not welcome here': Amazon faces growing resistance to its second home
#70What's missing from most articles (this one included) is any kind of analysis of whether tax breaks make sense for the states in question. It bothers me how it's presented as the state giving $5B of its own cash away to Amazon, as if that money could go to the homeless instead. Presumably there are ways to estimate the economic effects of 50,000 jobs + tax breaks. Is there a reason they're not mentioned?
Correct, that piece is missing from the article. And the answer to that question is that a tax break is effectively a form of financing, so why not let Amazon (or other major corporations) be on the hook for the note? Even when that financing is paid by future tax revenues, every tax payer in the region will sign up involuntarily for a little piece of that debt. For smaller projects, this incentive mechanism makes se…
Rather than trying to account for the supply chain pull as you noted, I wish cities and states would standardize upon an open source formatting and presentation of the data in their accounting systems. Many competing analyses of costs to various jurisdictions can then arise from private citizens and organizations, and then we can pit them against each other historically to converge upon a small set of models that are consistently predictive. We can even then gather insightful analyses from weaving together accounting and GIS datasets, for example, that weren't possible before without creating entire new bureaucracies.
With more accurate cost management accounting models, we can then more reliably challenge organizations petitioning for specific tax concessions: we can reasonably accurately model the influx of X thousand employees to have $Y impact upon the cost accounting structure over Z years. NPV of that cost is $N. If spread out over F forecasted years of the concession you are proposing, at equivalent long-term bond rate of your corporation of P% at your longest-projected credit quality, then that comes to $T total cost to the jurisdiction over the time period.
Then the per-employee per-$10,000 wage-adjusted cost burden to the jurisdiction on a per-unit basis becomes a calculated, known amount. Tilt the unit measure towards favoring lots of employees at moderate wages instead of a few employees at extremely high wages to incentivize high monetary velocity in the local economy, lest the extremely high wages of a few employees get translated away into capital gains-structured instruments. Compare that to existing employment data, and you know if the jurisdiction is over-paying or not for the concessions. And now the jurisdictions have a metric against which to demand a surety bond: with any future adjustments to wage and/or employee count, if it falls below a certain threshhold, the jurisdiction can collect upon a proportional amount in the surety bond for non-performance. Benefits dollars don't count, because the jurisdiction is only interested in the localized monetary velocity impact upon the localized economy that comes from wages.