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A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

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Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#241

Post by hyperpallium »

wl wrote: post #212
bulletsvshumans wrote: post #151

If folks really want to make sure they come back from the dead, they might also think about setting up proper incentives for performing the potentially highly laborious process that resurrection might entail even 100+ years from now. It might be helpful to place a sort of back-to-life bounty on yourself, to be held in escrow, and only to be paid out upon successful resurrection. The bigger the bounty, the higher your…

This would be difficult with the current legal system in most of the United States because of the rule against perpetuities[0]. Of course, jurisdiction shopping makes this easier in certain locales. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

According to Larry Niven (Rammer), the courts will find the dead cannot own property.

I observe there's a certain prejudice, in that law is written by the living.

The other ideas of cryptocurrency/escrow/private keys would escape the law... until you tried to spend it legally. You might as well bury gold in a chest.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#242

Post by DoreenMichele »

SherlockeHolmes wrote: post #220
DoreenMichele wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a rebuttal of my point. I have a serious medical condition. I frequently suffer somatopsychic side effects. It's incredible what chemistry can make you feel. I happen to also believe in a lot of woo stuff. But the reality is that no known cause is not proof that there is a spiritual explanation or cause.

this isn’t an explanation. this is a very poor woman’s hypothesis. If you were to provide verifiable relationships between chemical imbalances and whatever relevant physical abnormalities in a brain and a person’s mental state, you’d be up for a nobel prize. to achieve this relationship, you’d first need to develop a quantifiable way to represent a person’s mental state. for which, you’d be up for another nobel prize…

Sorry you aren't satisfied. There's plenty of information out there about somatopsychic side effects and we know drugs alter mental states all the time. That's so well established, I find it laughable that anyone would even question it.

I'm not very interested in seeking the Nobel Prize in this area. I am busy doing other things that I fantasize will lead to a Nobel Prize.

Best.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#243

Post by gf263 »

matte_black wrote: post #163
noetic_techy wrote: post #107

This is going to sound a bit out there, but what if your brain is simply an antenna for your consciousness to come through from wherever. Has anyone actually tried to boot up an artificial brain derived from a real organism? I'd like to see a proof of concept that your brain IS indeed the seat of your consciousness, and not just a fancy quantum antenna.

If you've ever suffered from Depersonalization/Derealization disorder, it will become very clear that your mind and your consciousness are not the same thing at all . DP/DR is quite possibly the worst mental disorder you can ever fall into. It is the feeling where you are convinced everything around you is not real, you see people you know, you know they are significant, but they just feel like actors in a show and y…

I suffered this for... A month? I honestly can't remember. That whole time is unfortunately a blur. What triggered it for me was intense anxiety - I've read theories that DP/DR is your brains way of coping with extremely traumatic experiences, and retreats into itself. Fortunately for me, nothing of that sort happened to trigger my anxiety :) I've essentially fixed the anxiety with a lot of walking and meditation. I wouldn't wish the hell on my worst enemy. It can make depression seem desirable.

From Reddit:

"DPDR is just your brain's ways to help you survive a situation you're unable to escape/fight. It tries to make you unaware of what's going on so you can endure it until it's over. It isn't supposed to be permanent. DPDR itself isn't anything to fear."[0]

[0]https://www.reddit.com/r/dpdr/comments/83vm5k/yikes_intense_...

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#244

Post by SherlockeHolmes »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #242
SherlockeHolmes wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this isn’t an explanation. this is a very poor woman’s hypothesis. If you were to provide verifiable relationships between chemical imbalances and whatever relevant physical abnormalities in a brain and a person’s mental state, you’d be up for a nobel prize. to achieve this relationship, you’d first need to develop a quantifiable way to represent a person’s mental state. for which, you’d be up for another nobel prize…

Sorry you aren't satisfied. There's plenty of information out there about somatopsychic side effects and we know drugs alter mental states all the time. That's so well established, I find it laughable that anyone would even question it. I'm not very interested in seeking the Nobel Prize in this area. I am busy doing other things that I fantasize will lead to a Nobel Prize. Best.

I am sorry that I was not satisfied.

Mind alterations are induced by drugs. Chemical imbalances influence the same. I just am not convinced that these evidences are enough.

Thank you.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#245

Post by ggggtez »

doorbumper wrote: post #83

It seems interesting from the perspective of the customer, but the really interesting thing is that if this succeeds, they will have access to brain imaging data that no one else has. You can't normally get such detailed scans of a human brain, because it requires the human to die. It's a business model that allows them to accelerate the pace of research without the human rights violations that come from human experi…

They aren't scanning the brains. They are just plasticizing them. The electron microscope scan was just to demo that the plasticizing actually worked, but it required cutting up the brain into slices. That isn't part of the procedure as far as I can tell.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#246

Post by ericb »

kolpa wrote: post #222
ericb wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would existence of a copy change anything? In programming it doesn't, yet you seem to argue it does. It isn't the copy that changes things. It is the potential of a copy that makes it glaringly obvious that the result is not the same instance. If there is some process that makes a second me, I don't have access to the copy of me's thoughts. This proves second me isn't actually me because I'm still here, and we…

> second me isn't actually me Then who is it? It remembers being you.

Ok, I have a clone of you in the other room and a gun. I am going to kill either you or them. You pick. Who do you pick? Why?

My suspicion is that most people suddenly realize they prefer the instance of their consciousness they are inhabiting.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#247

Post by Erlangolem »

noetic_techy wrote: post #237
Erlangolem wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s called dualism, and you’re basically proposing a soul in 21st century language. Like a soul, it’s not testable, and lacks any evidence in favor of it, while requiring a new set of assumptions which cannot be tested. You’re also proposing some kind of new physics, which again, is somehow complementary to and yet hidden from current current theories.

No new physics may be necessary: https://phys.org/news/2014-01-discovery-quantum-vibrations-m...

(2014)

There’s zero evidence of quantum mechanical effects playing a role in any aspect of cognition. Worse, the classical model suffices. Far worse, the review you cited has been thoroughly trashed.

https://cyber.sci-hub.la/MTAuMTEwMy9waHlzcmV2ZS42MS40MTk0/te...

https://cyber.sci-hub.la/MTAuMTEyNi9zY2llbmNlLjI4Ny41NDU0Ljc...

The “quantum mind” is just another case of quantum mechanics being used as the new woo of choice where “because God said so” wouldn’t be well received. Believe me, I’d love to discover that we’re not just meat hurtling towards our own extinction, but the evidence doesn’t bear out a rosier hypothesis. Even with the surprising duration of coherent state in “hot” systems, the human brain is a poor candidate for a quantum mechanical system, and the math strongly supports that. Where quantum mechanics is concerned, math is God.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#248

Post by ggggtez »

PeanutNore wrote: post #42

“Burdening future generations with our brain banks is just comically arrogant. Aren’t we leaving them with enough problems?” Hendricks told me this week after reviewing Nectome’s website. “I hope future people are appalled that in the 21st century, the richest and most comfortable people in history spent their money and resources trying to live forever on the backs of their descendants. I mean, it’s a joke, right? Th…

We don't say the same thing about egyptian pharohs and embalming. We consider it a very interesting treasure of history. I'm sure if embalming was a process that let us revive ancient people, we'd do so because we'd really want to learn from them.

Guy needs to not be so pessimistic.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#249

Post by DonHopkins »

hyperpallium wrote: post #241
wl wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be difficult with the current legal system in most of the United States because of the rule against perpetuities[0]. Of course, jurisdiction shopping makes this easier in certain locales. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

According to Larry Niven ( Rammer ), the courts will find the dead cannot own property. I observe there's a certain prejudice, in that law is written by the living. The other ideas of cryptocurrency/escrow/private keys would escape the law... until you tried to spend it legally. You might as well bury gold in a chest.

According to Douglas Adams, Hotblack Desiato once spent a year dead for tax reasons.

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Hotblack_Desiato

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#250

Post by caf »

noetic_techy wrote: post #203
CalRobert wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this. Funny thing is, I've been thinking more and more that this seems like at least as plausible an explanation of consciousness as any, but hesitated to share the thought since, if it's not falsifiable, it's not really science (and we can't use the tools of science to verify it). Still, I find it at least as likely as the "consciousness just sort of happens when information processing gets comple…

Thanks. I have exact same thought. Don't get me wrong, I think consciousness arising from sufficient complexity is also very much a possible answer, and I don't discount it. I'm just not totally convinced that there isn't more too it. Until a general AI arises, I don't think I will be convinced, and even if it did, who's to say it inst still just an approximation? Multiple AI intelligence domains slapped together wit…

What if there's less to it? What if consciousness is just an illusion, "you" only really exist in the moment, and the feeling of a connection to the "you" of a moment ago and the "you" to come in the next moment doesn't reflect an actual continuing independent existence?
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