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Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

nytimes.com

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Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#211

Post by function_seven »

mattigames wrote: post #202
function_seven wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "3:00 PM" mean? Serious question. If the government is shifting work hours at different times of the year, then "3:00 PM" will mean different things. It will be before school lets out sometimes, and after school lets out during other months. It'll be 2 hours before work ends, or only one hour. I'm no fan of DST, I think we should pick a timezone and stick with it. My argument is that DST is better than havi…

"Massively coordinated" is just every news anchor being obligated to say "Remember today the work day starts at 9:00PM and ends at 7:00PM" (with casual reminders weeks before of course), that's it, has anybody even tried to see if that brings chaos or if is just a baseless myth?

Not all work shifts start and end at the same time, nor are they the same length. Some people work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, others do 4/10s. Bus drivers have to be working when others are commuting.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#212

Post by zanny »

bostonpete wrote: post #117
inetknght wrote: post #28

> In parts of Maine, for example, between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the sun sets before 4 p.m. — more than an hour earlier than it does in Detroit, at the other end of the Eastern time zone. Why is the solution "permanent daylight savings"? Why is it not "let's split up the timezones better"?

The problem is that in parts of the Northeast, permanent EST would have significant deficiencies in the summer while permanent EST-1 would have significant deficiencies in the winter. Permanent EST: As it is, the sun rises in Boston before 5:30 AM from May 9-July 25, 2.5 months. With permanent EST, the sun would rise before 4:30 AM for those 2.5 months. People would much rather have that sunlight later in the day whe…

You only have the cultural expectation of "always get up at 7am" because of the insane timezone system. If sunrise changes throughout the year, changing the time you wakeup is the natural answer. Having an obtuse and indecipherable timekeeping system instead is insane.

The answer is to get up at 5 in the Summer and 7 in the Winter, or even better to get up at 10 in the Summer and 12 in Winter since you would put everyone on UTC.

If everyone was on the same time table society would quickly adopt a strategy where business hours shift seasonally. In Summer your hours might be 12-22, in Spring and Fall have them be 13-23, and in Winter have them be 14-00. They already do that, except the government changes everyones clocks at once rather than just changing business hours every season. Its less overhead to change business hours than every clock, especially when you factor international scheduling around DST changes and timezone changes.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#213

Post by torstenvl »

bostonpete wrote: post #117
inetknght wrote: post #28

> In parts of Maine, for example, between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the sun sets before 4 p.m. — more than an hour earlier than it does in Detroit, at the other end of the Eastern time zone. Why is the solution "permanent daylight savings"? Why is it not "let's split up the timezones better"?

The problem is that in parts of the Northeast, permanent EST would have significant deficiencies in the summer while permanent EST-1 would have significant deficiencies in the winter. Permanent EST: As it is, the sun rises in Boston before 5:30 AM from May 9-July 25, 2.5 months. With permanent EST, the sun would rise before 4:30 AM for those 2.5 months. People would much rather have that sunlight later in the day whe…

Would it really be a danger for kids walking to school?

If dawn didn't happen until after 0800, I could understand the concern. But the time between dawn and sunrise is much safer than the time right after sunrise. When the sun is low in the sky it blinds drivers.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#214

Post by zanny »

ianai wrote: post #170
CydeWeys wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with only having one central clock is that you no longer have relative time. Right now, I can say something like "I woke up at 11am", and you understand what that means, regardless of which timezone I'm in or you're in. It means I woke up late. But now imagine I said "I woke up at 16:00 Z." That's meaningless without the context of what timezone I'm in. That could be early, it could be late, it could be w…

For shift workers, 11 am can be usual or downright way too early. Everything is relative. A central time would force people to clarify just like they really need to anyway.

Exactly this. What frustrates me about arguments for contemporary timekeeping is that there is some inherent simplicity to having a big arbitrary insane map of time in different places on Earth that is constantly changing and has no fundamental rules.

You need additional information than the timezone they live in to call your neighbor on the phone much less someone living in a country halfway around the world.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#215

Post by zanny »

mindways wrote: post #80

I hope my own state follows suit. Before I became a parent, I found the shift to and from daylight savings time a mild annoyance. By the time I had an infant and a toddler, I was roundly cursing whomever decided that arbitrarily slip-shifting our clocks twice a year was a good idea. Kids' sleep schedules don't adjust instantaneously, and when they're too young for explanations to mean much it means it's a twice-a-yea…

Changing the clocks doesn't have a good explanation at any age. You don't "gain" more hours of daylight, you don't warp reality doing it. You just want to keep getting up as "insert arbitrary time you get up" year round so rather than adjust your alarm clock when the sun starts rising earlier or later in the day you... change your alarm clock anyway? Except instead of setting the alarm back an hour you set the clock back an hour.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#216

Post by DerekL »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #198
DerekL wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Commerce Clause: >Article I, Section 8, Clause 3: [The Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; Here's an example. Suppose I'm driving down the highways, and I arrive at some town and I decide to stop for lunch. I see a parking space, but it says I can't park there at certain times. But every city in the country sets its own cl…

That's quite a stretch. (Of course, the Commerce Clause has been stretched far beyond sanity before...) And standard time was not instituted by the government, using the powers of the Commerce Clause. It was instituted by railroads, who found the exact issue you described to be a pain when trying to schedule trains.

Yes, the Commerce Clause is not the best basis for this. Clause 5 is much better:

> [The Congress shall have power] To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#217

Post by zanny »

ethhics wrote: post #149

I don’t get the downright hatred that some have for DST. If we were perpetually on winter time, then at my latitude during the summer the sun would rise at 5 in the morning which is too early for many people. If we were to be perpetually on summer time, then in winter the sun will not rise until after 8, with people starting to work before the sun came up. Is there something wrong with wanting the sun to come up at a…

The sun will rise at "5 in the morning" no matter what time your clock says it is.

You could always, instead of changing time itself, just set your alarm an hour earlier or later. If your clocks go back an hour but you keep your alarm the same you are still getting up an hour earlier. You just made things way more complicated than they needed to be in the process.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#218

Post by qbrass »

gt_ wrote: post #138
fold wrote: post #17

I wouldn't mind everyone moving to UTC. Sure, only people in Greenwich would be able to eat lunch at 12 noon. But at least it would simplify my life as a programmer.

I would mourn the full effect of "midnight" poetics, as in Eric Clapton's "After Midnight" or Gladys Knight's "Midnight Train To Georgia".

Change "midnight" to "mid-night" and things work well enough.

"It's 5 O'Clock Somewhere" loses all meaning, along with anything else referencing the 9-5 workday.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#219

Post by nealabq »

Taniwha wrote: post #166
rjbwork wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have my laptop at work and desktop at home set to UTC. I eat lunch at 17:00. I go to sleep at 04:00. Not too difficult, just do it.

I live in NZ, I work in California, I get up at 5am in (my) winter, 6am for a few weeks in spring/autumn, 7am in summer - I have breakfast (lunch at) 7/8/9am, I quit at 1/2/3 In case you haven't figured it out DST transitions go the other way in the southern hemisphere - UTC would make so much sense (and for me being at roughly UTC+12 wouldn't be such a big deal) having said that I'm a big fan of just being on perman…

So on Saturday morning when you start it's still Friday morning at work. To them, you're from the future.

Re: Permanent Daylight Saving Time? Florida Says Yes, but It’s Not So Simple

#220

Post by jcadam »

- The winters on the central Florida coast are beautiful.

- I work 9 hours a day, at a job I loathe, in a building with no windows.

- Anyway, I'd like to enjoy some sunshine at the end of the day after work (that is, until I rage quit my job and become a full-time beach bum, in which case the extra sunlit hours in the evening will be a boon to my panhandling). So, in any case, I'm all for this.

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