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China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

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Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#151

Post by pesmhey »

adventured wrote: post #108
sjg007 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is that Trump and the State department are not going to do anything about a strongman in China. Trump likes strongmen and hasn't doing anything to curb Duerte, Putin and now Xi in China.

Let's be realistic. China has an economy nearly three times the size of the #3 economy, Japan, at this point. They dominate dozens of aspects of global trade and commodities. They're a nuclear power, and clearly the world's #2 military (and persistently trying to close the gap with the US). So, do what about Xi exactly? Nothing. There's absolutely nothing Trump or Obama could or would be able to do about Xi's power g…

Economic partnerships could be formed with the nations that surround China, especially the nations that could potentially restrict China’s access to global shipping. It would force them to spend huge amounts of capital on railroads to maintain control of their connection to the greater world.

All of the surrounding nations would agree with your accusation of authoritarian tendencies from China and would eagerly align themselves with each other and the US in order to level the playing field between them and China.

Another thing that could be done is to shame them on the international stage into adopting policies that restrict their ability to pollute, and subsequently slow their growth.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#152

Post by neuro_imager »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23
Dangeranger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not "criminals" if they never committed a crime, they are people being detained based on probabilities.

Has it had an effect on crime rates? If so, this is interesting. It means crime is predictable based on the inputs the system is measuring. It also means the Chinese AI effort is more fruitful than I expected it to be. If this is reducing crime, then we have a discussion of trade-offs. That is interesting, and potentially nuanced. If it's the latter, however, this is not interesting and there is no reasonable discuss…

You do realize this is the same regime that detains political enemies under bogus charges, assassinates them and sells their organs on the black market?

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#153

Post by dlwdlw »

bb88 wrote: post #129
Fricken wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would holding China accountable entail, exactly? "America doesn't like they way you do civilization. We don't like the way you brought 650 million people out of extreme poverty in a generation. If you have to use authoritarian tactics to do that, it's better that they stay poor and addicted to opium. You have to disband now." "Oh, okay. Sorry America. We recognize the error of our ways. We will stop being China…

The problem is that if you don't hold China accountable, it gives them the green light to do even worse things.

You should look more into the history of the US as well as international opinions. The US isn't a paragon of virtue, it is only able to sell its own narrative of events because of its economic and cultural weight.

Even the belief that the rich/powerful mist have some sort of virtue is only one perspective that conveniently allows the US the moral high ground.

No country, no person, no thing is perfect. All evil comes from things that pretend to be and act as if they were. The humans that pretend to or want to be gods inevitably are the one who dehumanize others and so become demons.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#154

Post by bb88 »

dlwdlw wrote: post #153
bb88 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you don't hold China accountable, it gives them the green light to do even worse things.

You should look more into the history of the US as well as international opinions. The US isn't a paragon of virtue, it is only able to sell its own narrative of events because of its economic and cultural weight. Even the belief that the rich/powerful mist have some sort of virtue is only one perspective that conveniently allows the US the moral high ground. No country, no person, no thing is perfect. All evil comes…

I'm fully aware of the failures of US Foreign Policy.

But when you argue about a topic that affects the security of the US, there really is no such thing as "moral high ground".

Edited to add:

I believe China holds that true as well when discussing the security of China, considering the number of spies that are in the US.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#155

Post by smsm42 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23
Dangeranger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not "criminals" if they never committed a crime, they are people being detained based on probabilities.

Has it had an effect on crime rates? If so, this is interesting. It means crime is predictable based on the inputs the system is measuring. It also means the Chinese AI effort is more fruitful than I expected it to be. If this is reducing crime, then we have a discussion of trade-offs. That is interesting, and potentially nuanced. If it's the latter, however, this is not interesting and there is no reasonable discuss…

> Has it had an effect on crime rates?

This is probably impossible to know, since totalitarian regimes are known for providing completely fake statistics - and it's usually not like they have one set of numbers (real), but publish another (fake), it's that the whole pipeline is hopelessly corrupt so nobody knows the real numbers. USSR was notoriously plagued by this problem - not only for crime, but also for other things like economical statistics.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#156

Post by longcheng »

pesmhey wrote: post #151
adventured wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be realistic. China has an economy nearly three times the size of the #3 economy, Japan, at this point. They dominate dozens of aspects of global trade and commodities. They're a nuclear power, and clearly the world's #2 military (and persistently trying to close the gap with the US). So, do what about Xi exactly? Nothing. There's absolutely nothing Trump or Obama could or would be able to do about Xi's power g…

Economic partnerships could be formed with the nations that surround China, especially the nations that could potentially restrict China’s access to global shipping. It would force them to spend huge amounts of capital on railroads to maintain control of their connection to the greater world. All of the surrounding nations would agree with your accusation of authoritarian tendencies from China and would eagerly align…

China listens, and stops importing western recycle trashes to protect its environment, and the western countries panic.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#157

Post by duncan_bayne »

z2 wrote: post #126
duncan_bayne wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one (perhaps except folks like Stallman?) is blameless here. One of the responsibilities of citizenship is to preserve your liberty against encroachment by State and private actors. Neglecting to consider that is a moral failure, and one I've been guilty of in the past. I'm not saying that it's necessarily immoral to, say, have a FB account. But it is to have one without considering the implications and acting acc…

Is it also a failure (moral or otherwise) for the State to not tell citizens of this particular duty? Speaking anecdotally, citizens' duties are vaguely described as "participate, stay informed, obey and support laws." It took me decades to notice the subtle and complex intentions of the State and private actors that counter freedoms in said laws. Not being Stallman or a full-time civil liberties defender, what's a g…

> Is it also a failure (moral or otherwise) for the State to not tell citizens of this particular duty?

Yes - but realistically, what do you think State education is _for_?

Primarily, it's to ensure a citizenry that obeys and supports laws. Staying informed is a very distant second, and participation is actively quashed from the get-go. (What proportion of your local school board consists of children?)

As for how to stay informed - learn the basics of the technologies involved, and follow the news feeds of folks with a deep interest in the field. In this case, the EFF is a good start.

But realistically, there's too much for one person to cover. Tech? Sure, perhaps. But then there's medicine, finance, real estate, construction ...

So really, what you're left with is electing representatives who will provide responsible oversight. But realistically, almost all of them are in the pockets of lobbyists at this point.

TBH I'm not sure what the solution is, here.

So perhaps it _isn't_ a moral failure any more, because the scope has grown to the point where most people say "fuck it" and give up.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#158

Post by forapurpose »

drb91 wrote: post #110
forapurpose wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what another state department might have done The US State Department, and the entire US government, has for generations made human rights central to US foreign policy. It's believed that people with freedom and opportunity become vibrant trade partners and allies, not enemies in war. Democracies don't start wars against other democracies, as an historical rule. That historic policy is widely believed…

This seems deeply, deeply idealistic to me--but ultimately this seems political, so I'll just say my point was that it's not clear what Obama could have done differently aside from save face and keep the state department staffed.

> This seems deeply, deeply idealistic to me--but ultimately this seems political, so I'll just say my point was that it's not clear what Obama could have done differently aside from save face and keep the state department staffed.

The facts differ from your claims. All you need to do is look at history, from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Kennedy to Reagan to Bush Jr to Obama and everyone in between. All embraced these things and acted on them.

The current nationalists want to paint it as idealistic, but in fact it has been the mainstream - and very effective - for generations.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#159

Post by forapurpose »

dragonwriter wrote: post #100
forapurpose wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what another state department might have done The US State Department, and the entire US government, has for generations made human rights central to US foreign policy. It's believed that people with freedom and opportunity become vibrant trade partners and allies, not enemies in war. Democracies don't start wars against other democracies, as an historical rule. That historic policy is widely believed…

> The US State Department, and the entire US government, has for generations made human rights central to US foreign policy. Rhetorically; the substance is less consistent. > Democracies don't start wars against other democracies, as an historical rule. There is basically no empirical evidence for this popular claim (the relative rarity of democracy-on-democracy war does not require any more than the small proportion…

>> > The US State Department, and the entire US government, has for generations made human rights central to US foreign policy.

> Rhetorically; the substance is less consistent.

Agreed, but the results are incredible on the scale of human history. Under Pax Americana, look at the amazing spread of liberty and democracy, and of prosperity, to people worldwide.

But yes, more should have been done. Too often the U.S. sacrificed others, on large scales, to narrow interests.

>> Democracies don't start wars against other democracies, as an historical rule.

> There is basically no empirical evidence for this popular claim

It's hard to prove a negative through evidence, but can you cite and exception? And looking at the obverse, progress in international peace and cooperation, have non-democracies ever achieved anything like the EU or NATO? Remember Europe before democracy.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#160

Post by kahnpro »

jdietrich wrote: post #112
ardit33 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree.... the US was shit at producing weapons before WW2 (apart from Carriers), yet within two years was to able to be the number one mass producer in quantity, and eventually on quality. When there is both political and economical will, the country will be able to mass-produce again. Right now there is no economic incentive to do so.

America had one overwhelming advantage - thousands of miles of ocean separating it from enemy lines. The industrial capacity of practically every other major nation was laid waste by strategic bombing. America also had domestic production of nearly every important manufacturing input, rendering it practically immune to naval blockade. Post-war, America didn't spend a single cent on rebuilding infrastructure lost to b…

Incidentally this is also a major overlooked factor in the Cold War against the USSR.

America has had 150 years of peace and stability. The Soviet Union was ravaged by a traumatizing war at home and before that a major civil war and revolution.

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