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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#171

Post by jacquesm »

Xylakant wrote: post #170
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absence of tax is not a subsidy. A subsidy is when something is cheaper than it should be because the government picks up some of the costs.

They are both taxed, but at a different rate. The government picks up the cost in terms of lost income. Yes, it's a subsidy (a deliberate tax break). The historic reason is that diesel was used for trucks. Later, diesel cars were considered to be environmentally better since they produce less CO2 per kilometer. They're just worse in other regards.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. If we start to take words and stretch their meaning beyond the agreed upon definition then any argument becomes meaningless. 'subsidy' is a very clearly defined term.

"a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low."

If the state is issuing a tax on something it is by definition not subsidized.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#172

Post by Tomte »

claudius wrote: post #145
tjansen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case it does. I am driving a Euro5 Diesel car and live in one of those cities where they may be banned. So, yes, I need to buy a new one. Which is quite difficult, or at least expensive, because it's quite possible that cars with the newer Euro6 Diesel emission standard may also be banned in the mid-term, and the latest standard Euro6d is brand new.

Well, either buy a car which doesn’t poison your neighbours or walk?

He bought a car that by every reasonable standard of informing himself about emissions was perfectly fine.

There is simply no way to lay blame on him. Blame the car industry.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#173

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 »

Svip wrote: post #98
olex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

Diesel isn't that cost efficient actually, even if you drive a lot. Diesel are more expensive to maintain due to regulations, plus diesel cars tend to be more expensive their petrol counterparts. Moreover, there is depreciation, which tend to be worse for diesel cars, because they are valued less on the second hand market (fairly or unfairly). On average, you should expect to drive at least 150.000+ km before you've…

Different tax systems can affect the equation even if you disregard that you pay less at the pump for fuel that your car consumes less than a petrol equivalent – lower CO2 figures may also mean that you pay less yearly fees or less taxes on car registration as well. The break-even figure certainly varies by country (as does depreciation of different cars).

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#174

Post by davrosthedalek »

kaybe wrote: post #146
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of exporting a lot of electricity, they are also now completely dependent on French nuclear power for energy security. German renewable sources are intermittent. In short, they produce energy when there is enough wind and when the sun shines, and both of those are conditions that correlate heavily over all of Germany. German electricity demand largely does not match them -- unlike in hotter climates, air c…

>demand is negatively correlated with sunshine No, it's not. Most electricity is used during the day, since that is when the cooking and washing is done. German companies prefer working during days too, although the larger factories will have a shift system. (see eg the plot here: https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&rem... )

sunshine!=day If it's sunny outside, people go outside. If it's raining, you stay inside and watch TV.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#175

Post by kilotaras »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #84
TheLostOne wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

Just like it did during the industrial revolution with mass replacement of people by machines.

One can derive argument for both sides from industrial revolution (not many horses working around), but generalizing from one datapoint isn't the most intellectually robust way to analyze the issue.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#176

Post by CalRobert »

jacquesm wrote: post #151
CalRobert wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling. So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally. There are very few places in the world where you can…

There are still plenty of cars in Ghent, except for the very heart of the city. The circulation plan they implemented there works to some extent but it has actually made the situation in the outskirts of the city worse because people that do have to drive now drive longer distances to get to the same place. There is still inner city parking too (the underground garages) so Ghent is not really free of cars yet. If you…

I was hoping to bear near people as well. I suppose it was a bit fanciful; I visited Ghent in spring and it was jaw-droppingly beautiful (flowers spilling over railings along a pretty river. The blue skies didn't hurt either). That would cost a bit, but from the looks of it not _too_ much all things considered. Some of the old walled cities are car-free enough that I'd let a six year old ride a bike in them, thus Rothenburg odt.

Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it? When we get away from cities, towns, and villages, it becomes more feasible to just buy enough land to enjoy it without automobiles. A bit lonely though.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#177

Post by jacquesm »

TheLostOne wrote: post #168
igravious wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never gamble. Effectively what I'm saying is: polite way–"I'm so confident you're spouting rubbish that I'm will to risk €3000 of my money to prove you wrong even though I never gamble." less polite way–"Put up or shut up." Also I'm from a neighbouring (check out how I spell neighbour for a clue!) EU country so a link to a US gambling site is no use to me. ;-)

I never gamble. I know next time is black.

In that case no sweat, take that bet, it is money in your pocket.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#178

Post by rmetzler »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city.

This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law.

I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I biked my way to work. On the way to work, there was a sign: "Achtung, erhöhte Feinstaubbelastung!" - "Attention, high fine dust pollution!"

I don't understand why my health should be at risk for something I don't produce.

Regarding a ban of certain cars: I think German cities can still make it work. There is public transportation in most cities. It's also reasonable to allow trucks at least at certain times. It's also reasonable to allow diesel cars with 2 or more people inside or allow diesel cars at certain times.

This is a time to have a conversation about how we want to live in the future and every mayor has to think hard about what (s)he want for the citizen of her/his city.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#179

Post by Torwald »

TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

> ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons

What about death? I mean, wouldn't this take too long to reach people and to bring them into hospital if needed?

(We already have cases were people die on the way to the hospital as things stand.)

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#180

Post by jacquesm »

TheLostOne wrote: post #166
IshKebab wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That lawyer thing is like saying "a calculator just beat top mathematicians at their own arithmetic" and expecting it to generate replace maths professors within 5 years. AI is great but it's hilarious to think much will have changed in 5 years. Have a look at the results from the Stanford Question Answering Database if you want to see how far there is still to go.

90% of lawyers do are not top notch defence lawyers. Most of lawyers work in companies and do NDA work.

This comment does not parse, and the second part of it makes very little sense. NDA -> Non Disclosure Agreement, that's a fairly standard legal device which definitely does not employ the majority of lawyers in corporations.
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