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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#141

Post by IshKebab »

CalRobert wrote: post #83
72deluxe wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like sofas, armchairs, refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, flat-screen TVs and oak beds? Great idea, but how would you feasibly transport them? The deliveroo boxes are going to have to increase in size...

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

A sofa can't be transported by bike. Especially not up hills, don't be an idiot.

A better solution would be to restrict traffic to commercial vehicles and only at certain times.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#142

Post by IkmoIkmo »

tjansen wrote: post #129
biswaroop wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, cars kill astronomically more pedestrians than do bikes.

There are two differences: a) It's something that I can control, as long as I stay on the sidewalk and the cars stay on the street. But I have no control over bicycles on the sidewalks (even if there is a bike lane and it's illegal, many cyclists just take the shortest path, because they can). b) it's a problem than can mostly be solved by technology. I would like to see automatic pedestrian braking being required fo…

Sure, in isolation I would prefer a car staying in its car-lane to a bicycle driving all over the sidewalk.

But then, this change doesn't have to happen in isolation. The Netherlands is a great example of a decades-long investment in pedestrian-first & cyclist-first infrastructure over cars. Cycles have their own dedicated lanes, increasingly not just painted on the car-lanes but separated from both the car lanes and sidewalks with elevations. And as they're ubiquitous and well-kept, cyclists have no real reason to drive on the sidewalk.

Cycling on the sidewalk just isn't a problem of any significance anymore in most places in the Netherlands. But when I went to Berlin and cycled there, I often found myself on the sidewalk by way of convenience and safety. The solution isn't to say no to bikes and have cars instead because cars have dedicated infrastructure they stick to, the solution is dedicated infrastructure for bicycles and incentives + enforcement to make them stick to it. It works very well in the Netherlands, which was actually, at one time, a country with tons of development geared towards cars.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#143

Post by jacquesm »

ams6110 wrote: post #109
gwbas1c wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've quickly realized from driving an electric car: gas (petrol) cars smell really, really bad. We're just so used to it we don't notice.

Nothing like the cars from the '70s or earlier. Every once in a while driving, I'll pass a restored car from the 60s or 70s going the other way, and can smell the exhaust for about a mile. And that's one car.

Nothing like a two-stroke moped. Those are the worst by far.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#144

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

brownbat wrote: post #80
cwal37 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate i…

Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust. Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually. There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles into the air, suspending them in the ai…

So then, switching to electric won't even cut particulate emissions of cars in half?

That looks like a huge issue, why is it not publicized more?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#145

Post by claudius »

tjansen wrote: post #136
1337biz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about the idea that this is a hidden stimulation for the German car industry, ie. If you can find a reason to ban all cars that are painted blue, you create massive demands for other colors.

In my case it does. I am driving a Euro5 Diesel car and live in one of those cities where they may be banned. So, yes, I need to buy a new one. Which is quite difficult, or at least expensive, because it's quite possible that cars with the newer Euro6 Diesel emission standard may also be banned in the mid-term, and the latest standard Euro6d is brand new.

Well, either buy a car which doesn’t poison your neighbours or walk?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#146

Post by kaybe »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #40
guardian5x wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Regardless of exporting a lot of electricity, they are also now completely dependent on French nuclear power for energy security. German renewable sources are intermittent. In short, they produce energy when there is enough wind and when the sun shines, and both of those are conditions that correlate heavily over all of Germany. German electricity demand largely does not match them -- unlike in hotter climates, air c…

>demand is negatively correlated with sunshine

No, it's not. Most electricity is used during the day, since that is when the cooking and washing is done. German companies prefer working during days too, although the larger factories will have a shift system.

(see eg the plot here: https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&rem...)

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#147

Post by zaarn »

olex wrote: post #32
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

Diesel has a higher maintenance cost too, especially if you only drive short distances. IIRC the main cost here is the catalysator, which basically clogs up if it can't properly heat up. That doesn't happen on short range.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#148

Post by mantas »

noelwelsh wrote: post #127
tjansen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're talking about US cities. Because IMHO most European cities are already far too dense. You can hardly see the sky.

All cities with cars, and no, they aren't.

But if you make cities even densier, you'll have to restrict their height. People on the first floor still want sunlight for a reasonable time :) Meanwhile wide streets allow tall buildings..

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#149

Post by tjansen »

IshKebab wrote: post #139
tjansen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two differences: a) It's something that I can control, as long as I stay on the sidewalk and the cars stay on the street. But I have no control over bicycles on the sidewalks (even if there is a bike lane and it's illegal, many cyclists just take the shortest path, because they can). b) it's a problem than can mostly be solved by technology. I would like to see automatic pedestrian braking being required fo…

Do you think the pedestrians who get killed by cars were somehow "forgetting to control it"? That makes zero sense.

Why? Excluding children, most pedestrians who get killed by cars didn't pay attention while crossing the street. That's the no 1 cause for adults. The other one is walking on streets without sidewalks.

(sorry, ony have stats in German: https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/Praesentation11-13_192487.pdf)

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#150

Post by kaybe »

bildung wrote: post #61
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of exporting a lot of electricity, they are also now completely dependent on French nuclear power for energy security. German renewable sources are intermittent. In short, they produce energy when there is enough wind and when the sun shines, and both of those are conditions that correlate heavily over all of Germany. German electricity demand largely does not match them -- unlike in hotter climates, air c…

Same difference with nuclear power. Starting and stopping nuke plants is very expensive/inefficient, yet energy demand is fluctuating wildy. That's why there is an international network for transmitting energy. One example is French excess nuclear energy in the summer (in central Europe AC are very uncommon, so energy demand is low when it's hot): Germany can more easily switch off renewable plants and import French…

In the summer one runs into cooling problems for the plants too. Sometimes they have to be shut off because the river is already too warm - creating problems for France.
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