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How poverty changes your mindset

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501–510 of 559 posts

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about offering to help someone and then people acting like you are a bad person? How about that? I've got nothing for or against either poster, but so many assumptions were made about someone who may have been just trying to help. Why is that fair? Why try to help anyone if you're gonna get treated like that?

I did not make assumptions about them. I talked about my experience with how this typically goes and the fact that I find this sort of comment very problematic. It puts me in an incredibly awkward position because there is absolutely no good way for me to respond to it. If I publicly say yes and they actually help, there is a danger that this will become a running theme on the site. This would be a serious problem fo…

> If people genuinely respected me and genuinely cared, they could help me figure out how to turn my writing skill into a middle class income.

Consider video. It's out pacing written material by a long shot and fast becoming how people consume knowledge. Not everyone is suited for it, but it's worth considering. The systems in place for publishing video content are also better and have a much bigger reach (without any work)

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#502
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not make assumptions about them. I talked about my experience with how this typically goes and the fact that I find this sort of comment very problematic. It puts me in an incredibly awkward position because there is absolutely no good way for me to respond to it. If I publicly say yes and they actually help, there is a danger that this will become a running theme on the site. This would be a serious problem fo…

> If people genuinely respected me and genuinely cared, they could help me figure out how to turn my writing skill into a middle class income. Consider video. It's out pacing written material by a long shot and fast becoming how people consume knowledge. Not everyone is suited for it, but it's worth considering. The systems in place for publishing video content are also better and have a much bigger reach (without an…

Thank you. And thank you for your Patreon pledge. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you genuinely trying to do the right thing under difficult circumstances.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#503
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anger comes from, in personal experience, being taken out of society by things outside of your control, and whenever you ask for help being treated like a lazy beggar who has a lot of nerve even asking to survive. It comes from seeing the same "if I can help let me know" responses over and over that are really like "lets get lunch" statements and never result in actual help. Then when you get more depressed and u…

You're welcome to live a cynical life, walking around thinking everyone is bad and no one wants to truly help.

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#504
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anger comes from, in personal experience, being taken out of society by things outside of your control, and whenever you ask for help being treated like a lazy beggar who has a lot of nerve even asking to survive. It comes from seeing the same "if I can help let me know" responses over and over that are really like "lets get lunch" statements and never result in actual help. Then when you get more depressed and u…

You're welcome to live a cynical life, walking around thinking everyone is bad and no one wants to truly help.

Man come on. I was explaining why those who suffer long term get bitter and depressed. I used to be healthy and happy and helped others for a living and personally. I was an empathetic person even then and thought I understood how people would respond, but until I lived the need I really didn't. It's not cynicism it's experience and it explains how people get grumpy and hopeless. Ask anyone who has suffered long term and they will tell you MOST people simply aren't willing to try to understand, and to truly help others. That's not a personal insult to you or those who would. When someone in pain lashes out because of their overwhelming experiences it's never about YOU but rather their fear and helplessness. The way you punched back saying "fine be a miserable person then" comes from you feeling slighted and wanting to lash out in that same way so it should be something you can empathize with.

I only want people to see the human in the suffering. The helpers are human too but are in a position of power and also have a more stable life and ability to cope. When I was working and being yelled at and unappreciated by people in severe distress I worked to never take it personally and did my very best for them. It was never about me..they had simply lost their ability to cope and needed help back to normality. It's terrifying to think about but can happen to anyone, any time.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#505
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I would like to see more people approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and move forward trying to improve it(capitalism). Unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma(in the US).

> a lot of stigma That's because forcible communism's track record is simply horrific. You can create or join a commune as you please, I have no problem with that. But when you try to force people into one, or prevent them from leaving, a lot of people are going to fight you.

I'm not talking about forcing people into a commune, I'm talking about approaching capitalisms flaws using the tools we have available instead of pretending the free market is a perfect system. That's a crazy false dichotomy and is exactly the kind of stigma I am talking about.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#506
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not possible to make something "work out" without taking risks? A quote from the olden (perhaps wiser) days, was "don't quit your day job", has this sage advice been lost? Unless we are going to avoid widely classifing a "risk" as something "scary" or "hard", then isn't changing jobs risky?

I think the definition of a risk is very relative though. If someone is barely making ends meet (with no signs of improving their situation if they keep their same routine), then taking time to educate themselves (a vocation school, getting resources on how to stretch a dollar, etc.) may seem like a risk. When you don't have education, time, or money every decision you take on your day to day is a risk. I'm not going…

>I think the definition of a risk is very relative though.

That was part of my point, though I worded it poorly.

>then taking time to educate themselves (a vocation school, getting resources on how to stretch a dollar, etc.) may seem like a risk.

I think the biggest issue here is kids. I taught at a local community college, and I can say that almost everyone there was taking a risk of some kind to get through school. But the moms that had to leave class early to pick up their kid from one place and bring them to another place and then go to Walmart for work to make ends meet.

I had a student who was homeless, and now has a good job. He worked harder than 99% of the other students. (I taught for about 12 years)

I also had a student that was watching porn and left his baby in the tub and it drowned.

These are the people that would benefit from help, but the problems that I see are that they have help right now. I know this because I was a homeless teen on the streets for a while. And there's help all over the place.

I think people that have never been homeless don't understand it at all. It's a totally foreign world. But half the people that were my friends were trying to get off the streets, and the other half were not. Drugs were pervasive, and one friend was this happy, carefree kid, and a year later when I was back in town, he was on meth and was mugging people.

What people are missing is good parents that could teach their kids how to live, especially when it gets hard. Save money, don't waste your life on drugs, work hard, be decent to people.

Many of my friends were happy being on the streets (I was for a time) because home life was so wretched.

What would happen if all these kids got a chunk of money every month? Drugs and entertainment, I gurantee you that. Why? Because they saw no hope in spending it wisely when many couldn't look further than a day in the future. Misery an hopelessness was their daily life.

Some kids would get some money, and they go to a fancy restaurant for a single meal. One time a bunch of kids spanged (spare changing) for a whole day just to get a night at the Hilton hotel and bunch of them took showers there. (there are showers at the shelter, and they still did this) And yes, the shelter was totally safe (some theft) but it was kids, not crazed adults. I think the adults lives are just an extension of what the teens experience, but a more realistic outlook, and hopelessness is spread out over time differently. (I was homeless as an adult for awhile as well)

The kids that made it out were the ones looking for jobs and housing, even when all they had was a local shelter and general mailbox and phone service provided by a local volunteer house for homeless kids.

Risk plays no part in helping any of these kids, or me when I was there. There daily life is full of risk. There were kids selling drugs, a few prostituted themselves in various ways. (though this gets worse the longer you are out there) I finally got a job, but had nothing to spend money on. I had hundreds of dollars in my pocket at one point, and was still homeless.

Unless you have 10k or more, what "risk" could you possibly take without family or a huge support network? And if you did have that money, but no support, it would be insane to take a risk. I think talking about risks in regards to helping the needing is red herring, a strawman, and distraction.

What these people need is real hope, so that when they change from spending $30 a day at McDonalds, to spending $100 a week at a grociery store, that they truly believe and understand they are making their future better.

I have so much more to say about this, but I will pause. I find many comments about the poor and downtrodden to be based on faulty understanding of these people's reality. It reminds me of white people arguing about what black people experience. Can they? Of course, but they often sound silly and misinformed.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#507
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I would like to see more people approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and move forward trying to improve it(capitalism). Unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma(in the US).

The Marxist critique of capitalism includes critique of the capacity for improvement within capitalism; you seem to want people to approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and then ignore key parts of that critique.

I think Karl Marx is right about a lot things, I think Adam Smith is right about a lot of things- I think our(The US, Global Economy) current system must be incredibly flawed for so much wealth to be concentrated in such a way that a shockingly small group of individuals hold a useless amount of wealth. Redistribution in the form of systems that improve everyone's quality of life is the only thing that makes sense...I honestly don't think how one could see otherwise?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I totally get this. I have no idea why people want stuff. I have one computer, one phone, one guitar, and so on. If I could own just one set of clothing, I'd be happy with that. It isn't frugality for me, it's just that I can't stand clutter and really, what I consider. I think I missed whatever the definition of having things means.

Maybe you're just conditioned to not want things from your childhood. I remember wanting to have nice sneakers in school because all the other kids had nice sneakers and they'd make fun of you if you don't. I'd spend time in footlocker just looking at the stuff they had or sift through my eastbay catalogs but never buy anything. I wasn't happy that we couldn't afford them but after seeing that we had to take out loan…

If you walk a lot, good sneakers make a huge difference. My knees are... well, but ideal, but much better, since I got better sneakers that cost more money.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to do that, they would need immediate stable income, or enough capital to live on until they found it. Probably both. That is the whole point: no one in this situation has either of these things. That is the group of people Sen. Hatch thinks does not deserve financial help.

After reading through (most of) the comments here, I am genuinely curious what we can do as individuals to help. It is pretty clear that the gov isn't too keen on helping (don't want to get into politics - just one look at the budget cuts is enough to prove this point). So is there anything we can do? Protesting, running for public office etc makes the most sense but I am not built for it. What is the second best thi…

Honestly, I see the biggest problem is that there isn't a clear solution.

We have a culture that is trained against this group of people; trained against helping each other succeed, against promoting others' individual liberty. I don't have a one-size-fits-all solution, and that seems to be the only kind this culture will accept.

I think an important first step is empathy: understand how people feel stuck and why. Understand that the bare necessities are not enough. Understand the heightened stress that comes with this situation: inability to take risks, inability to recover from failed ventures, etc.

The next step is sympathy. Sympathy is closely related to empathy, but there is an important distinction: the difference between comprehension and understanding.

After that, I really don't know. I haven't ever been in a situation where I have the capital to significantly change another person's situation. Because I have never had the perspective, I don't see a solution. That is probably the most frustrating part of the problem: not knowing how someone can help you.

Sure, I could beg for food and rent, but that wouldn't be enough to be independent. In our society, it's difficult to ask for even the bare necessities, let alone ask for things like a car, enough capital to move to the city, out of state, or even out of country.

Some see debt as a solution: Get a student loan and an education, and then get into a better situation. But that assumes that college education is well suited for everyone, which is simply untrue. Loans require judgment by lenders; and if the path that you are most passionate about does not explicitly follow the "normal" routine - school, internship, temp job, career, etc. - those who lend money are likely to deny you your dreams.

The most frustrating thing to me is that because I don't have a perfect solution, the entire subject gets dropped. Solutions are found with effort and progress, not simply stumbled upon.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#510
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Marxist critique of capitalism includes critique of the capacity for improvement within capitalism; you seem to want people to approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and then ignore key parts of that critique.

I think Karl Marx is right about a lot things, I think Adam Smith is right about a lot of things- I think our(The US, Global Economy) current system must be incredibly flawed for so much wealth to be concentrated in such a way that a shockingly small group of individuals hold a useless amount of wealth. Redistribution in the form of systems that improve everyone's quality of life is the only thing that makes sense...…

> useless

What do you think wealthy people do with their money?

> the only thing that makes sense

If you want to end human progress. Me, I'm excited about Musk's progress in space exploration, for one example.

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